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  1. #1
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    Default To Buy a Kapex or Not

    Having now installed a 5 h.p. piped dust extraction system in my shed, I'm working my way through adapting and connecting the various pieces of equipment including the mitre saw which is probably responsible for bulk of the fine dust coating everything. It's a 15 y.o. 254 mm Makita which cost $1100 if I recall correctly and its dust collection is woeful.

    I could build a cabinet to house the Makita which, with the upgraded system, would almost certainly provide enough negative pressure to capture most of the airborne dust generated. But there's so many designs out there that analysis paralysis is a real danger.

    OR, I could bite the bullet and spend two grand on the very compact Kapex which apparently has a fantastic DE system. A simple bell mouth cabinet should take care of the rest. I really don't care about any dust left in the bottom of the cabinet, only the airborne variety. BTW, I've looked at the Bosch and rejected it.

    Any comments or recommendations would be appreciated.

    mick

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Mick, the Kapex on its own will not give you the dust free operation you are seeking and to do what it does requires a Festool vacuum attached to it. The Kapex is way better than most but it still does not capture all the dust from the cutting operation just a lot of it using the vacuum and I wide cuts nowhere near what Festool would like to claim according to owners. The hood design I came up with works as well as any of them with a Cleavue attached to it. I have a Bosch Glide and it is the worst mitre saw for dust and debris with the supplied dust control, it simply does not work but in the end one saw or another makes the same mess and dust and it is only the design of the capture system that is the difference between any of them.

    Buying the Kapex for dust control in a workshop is only a partial cure, buying it for being a really nice tool is something a lot of us would aspire to. If I was doing site work in other people's homes then a Kapex would be mandatory simply because it minimises dust and debris but elimination does not happen. I reasoned that since I had to build a hood then the saw can be any that does the job I wanted done and the Bosch scored the gig.

    The link to the thread on mine, put simply it works. I made two bending formers, wet a sheet of 3mm MDF and clamped it to the formers. Two days later when unclamped it was perfect. I might still have the formers, I would have to check on that.
    Dust Hood For Bosch Glide Saw
    CHRIS

  4. #3
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    Default Best saw, hands down.

    I’m on my second Kapex saw, the first one developed an issue after 6 years of hard work and when it was sent back to Festool they replaced it with a brand new saw no charge. This one is about 7 years old I think and still cuts perfectly. I have it hooked to a mini vac and it catches 80% of swarf, the only time I’ve noticed that is leaves a bit behind if someone rips a piece of pine along the grain, otherwise it’s fine. There are lots of little things that the Kapex has and does well that become apparent when you use it for a while. I’ve had every other type of saw except the bosch glide but I’ve used a mates one and even he says he prefers my saw. Yes it’s $2k, but the price is inconsequential after 13 years of hard work, cutting everything from pine framing to hardwood stair treads to crown moulding, I simply can’t praise it enough, it’s a winner.

  5. #4
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    Default

    I agree with Chris Parks that given you already have a beefy DC then a CP style of hood or similar is the way to go.

    The best fine dust capture arrangement I have measured is a CP style hood PLUS attaching a 2" hose to the saw's dust port and poking the hose up inside the hood plenum.
    When I tested this arrangement out with a particle counter I could not detect any additional fine dust above normal shed dust levels (which is that case was the same as outside air).

    There's always going to be the odd bit of chip scatter but the thing is not to let this solely guide your hood design.

  6. #5
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    Default

    Thanks one and all for your input.

    I liked Chris's shroud when he first posted the design, however I'm not yet convinced that a single outlet at the bottom will induce enough negative pressure in the space above the blade to capture all the fine airborne particles. My solution is to add a second outlet about two thirds of the way up and use a blast gate arrangement across the whole width of the back wall so that I can vary the ratio of airflow between top and bottom. A lighted candle will become the test instrument.

    It's good to hear the Kapex is a winner and ably supported by Festool Australia.

    Whatever I do, it sounds like I'll have to invest in a particle meter. I do wonder about their accuracy but I'd be satisfied with comparative readings from sample to ambient.

    mick

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glider View Post
    Thanks one and all for your input.

    I liked Chris's shroud when he first posted the design, however I'm not yet convinced that a single outlet at the bottom will induce enough negative pressure in the space above the blade to capture all the fine airborne particles. My solution is to add a second outlet about two thirds of the way up and use a blast gate arrangement across the whole width of the back wall so that I can vary the ratio of airflow between top and bottom. A lighted candle will become the test instrument.
    By all means use outlet and deflectors to direct flow but be careful about any throttling down of air flow because optimised fine dust extraction requires maximum flow.

    Instead of a candle consider using flow indicator tape. You can make one up using many short bits of string or wool attached systematical to lengths of tape - like this.Ducting update.

    Ducting update.-img_2252-jpg

    You can leave these in place and watch what happens to the direction of any air flow as you use a machine or move a workpieces around a machine.
    BTW the convention is to use as brightly coloured pieces as possible, preferably something neon. Pale pink was the best I could find at short order.


    Whatever I do, it sounds like I'll have to invest in a particle meter. I do wonder about their accuracy but I'd be satisfied with comparative readings from sample to ambient.
    Even the really cheap ones will give an indication of PM2.5 within a factor of about two.
    DO a search for "PM2.5 Detector LCD display" and you will see quite a few.

    I have one of these for the house
    TFT LCD Display PM2.5 Detector Module Air Quality Dust Sensor Monitor | eBay

    It stacks up pretty consistently (maybe slightly low bt 20 - 30%) for PM2.5 with my other four (slightly more modern) sensors I use of shed dust work. It less reliable (50%?) at PM5 and PM10.
    Be careful using them - they will seize up permanently if placed in an area with high dust concentration and they won't operate indefinitely as the detector modules have a continuous operating life time of about 3 years in a regular household dust environment.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    I have one of these for the house
    Really! I guess that shouldn't surprise me from the guy that wants to ban vacuum cleaners.

  9. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aldav View Post
    Really! I guess that shouldn't surprise me from the guy that wants to ban vacuum cleaners.
    I keep at least 1 of my 5 dust particle monitors running in the house and one running in the shed. Both are showing <1 µg/m^3.

    Our floors are polished jarrah (no carpets) but we have two fluffy dogs who constantly shed hair and SWMBO has a room full of fabrics that are almost as dust making as the dogs. To counteract these sources of dust we use a robot vac that does a quick pass through the areas the dogs are allowed into about every two days. However the robot does not do well in the corners so we do those about once a week.

    Cooking activities like frying and baking produces far higher PM2.5 particles than either the dogs or fabrics. The only times I see greater PM2.5 levels is when bushfire smoke blows into the city.

  10. #9
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    BobL, re that pic above
    I presume timber goes from right of pic to left?
    where'd you get such thick acrylic for top piece?
    The white PVC pipe on right what does that do?

    I seem to remember you posting a build of this but cannot find it...help please
    I would love to grow my own food, but I can not find bacon seeds

  11. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonyz View Post
    BobL, re that pic above
    I presume timber goes from right of pic to left?
    where'd you get such thick acrylic for top piece?
    Work scrap bin

    The white PVC pipe on right what does that do?
    See link referred to below

    I seem to remember you posting a build of this but cannot find it...help please
    Link was provided in post #6

  12. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    By all means use outlet and deflectors to direct flow but be careful about any throttling down of air flow because optimised fine dust extraction requires maximum flow.

    Instead of a candle consider using flow indicator tape. You can make one up using many short bits of string or wool attached systematical to lengths of tape - like this.Ducting update.

    Ducting update.-img_2252-jpg

    You can leave these in place and watch what happens to the direction of any air flow as you use a machine or move a workpieces around a machine.
    BTW the convention is to use as brightly coloured pieces as possible, preferably something neon. Pale pink was the best I could find at short order
    The adjustable blast gate is intended to adjust the flow distribution between top and bottom. It'll take some experimentation to optimise the combined size of the upper and lower inlets to avoid a choke point.

    What you call flow indicator tapes, I call telltales. Great idea, thanks! We use them on the water to ensure the sails are producing optimum lift; and also on the canopy of my glider as a slip and skid indicator. If I get really keen, I'll snaffle an old air speed indicator and pitot which will read airspeed to one knot accuracy. A 7 mm hole in the 150 pipe will accommodate the pitot and it'll work fine in the centre of the pipe as long as I ensure the system is not sucking dust when I insert it.

    mick

  13. #12
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    Default

    What you call flow indicator tapes, I call telltales. Great idea, thanks! We use them on the water to ensure the sails are producing optimum lift; and also on the canopy of my glider as a slip and skid indicator.
    I got the original idea from some I saw on motor vehicle models

    If I get really keen, I'll snaffle an old air speed indicator and pitot which will read airspeed to one knot accuracy. A 7 mm hole in the 150 pipe will accommodate the pitot and it'll work fine in the centre of the pipe as long as I ensure the system is not sucking dust when I insert it.
    Just a heads up that a single point airflow measurement in the middle of an insitu duct (ducting forming part of a working system) might not be that reliable because the air flow inside a 150 mm duct connected to a large DC will be highly turbulent so maybe also have a read of this
    DRAFT: FAQ - Dust Extraction (Practical Aspects)

  14. #13
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    Default

    If you are still looking to replace the saw, the latest Makita saw with the vertical slide bars has a much improved collection port.
    The review I read was that it was up there in Kapex territory so might be worth having a look at

  15. #14
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    Thanks Beardy! Nothing like a sharp nudge to broaden the focus. The Makita LS1019 reviews pretty well and at $949 versus $2065 it's enough to knock the Kapex off the podium. It also makes my decision much easier.

    During my research it was claimed that Festool don't dip their motor windings to stabilise them so motor failures were reported in the U.S.

    mick

  16. #15
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    Default

    Kapex handles DE better than some, but it is not the best,

    The best mitre saw when it comes to DE is Omga, the dust port is 80mm. you cant beat that.
    SCM L'Invincibile si X, SCM L'Invincibile S7, SCM TI 145EP, SCM Sandya Win 630, Masterwood OMB1V, Meber 600, Delta RJ42, Nederman S750, Chicago Pneumatics CPRS10500, Ceccato CDX12



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