Thread: Carbatec 1.5HP Cyclone DE

In my opinion, this unit

CARBATEC DUST COLLECTOR 2200W 2300CFM TWIN BAG (ALL NEW MODEL) | Dust Extractors - Carbatec

with pleated filters would be a much better option and cheaper.

Thanks Lappa. The major weakness with that unit (for me) is that its footprint is enormous (1550x750). It also has two plastic bags for me to fumble around with when I already have the sh*ts with one bag.

Granted the unit I linked has a plastic bag too, but I'm assuming the cyclone will mean the bag rarely has to be emptied.

My main concerns with the unit you linked to is its only 1.5hp. That’s small even for a non cyclone unit.
Its rated at 899 CFM but the economy unit at $439 is rated at 1200 CFM which I know for a fact is way off line when actually being used in a system. I have one and it’s less than 700 CFM on good day with all filters clean.

Originally Posted by jack620

I've finally lost patience with my 20+ y.o. HAFCO DE. Today the plastic collector bag managed to free itself from the retaining strap and blew dust all over the workshop. I think it blew out because the needle felt upper bag had become clogged with fine dust (my bad) and the air had to go somewhere.

It's time to upgrade. To save floorspace I'd like a DE that includes a built-in cyclone.
I like the look of this one. Not cheap, but the cheap ones are just variations on the one I already have.

Carbatec 1.5HP Cyclone Dust Extractor with Auto-Clean | Dust Extractors - Carbatec

Can anyone comment on this DE? If not that specific model, at least that style of DE? .

That DC less than desirable for effective dust extraction.
The cyclone design is from the 1960's so it will generate a high back pressure which will affect the overall air flow..
The manufacturer quoted air flow can be divided by about two get a real dust extraction - the same applies to most DCs on the market.

P.S. I'm not interested in building a system from parts. Life's too short.

No matter what you buy you will inevitably be up for a lot more work than buying a DC to get effective dust extraction
The DC is only ONE of three important aspects of dust control.
2) To get enough flow 150mm ducting is needed - do you have this already.
AND
3) Machinery dust port MUST be opened up to 150 mm to make use of the 150mm ducting.

To use a cyclone (which all significantly reduce flow) and retain sufficient air flow the impeller needs to be ~15" and it will requires about a 4HP motor.
This why Bill Pentz made his cyclone with these specs plus he also uses a more advanced cyclone design which properly matches cyclone size to impeller/motor and uses an inclined air intake.

If your shed is not too big (ie shortish ducting runs) you could go with a twin filter bag DC that uses a 3HP motor with a 13" impeller BUT you have to be prepared to keep the filters clean.

If money is really tight the next level down is a modified 2HP DC as per the sticky in the forum, and you can add extra safety by using some exhaust fans.

Originally Posted by BobL

The cyclone design is from the 1960's so it will generate a high back pressure which will affect the overall air flow.

Bummer.

Originally Posted by BobL

2) To get enough flow 150mm ducting is needed - do you have this already.

No, but easily fixed as I don't have a long run from my combo machine to the DE.

Originally Posted by BobL

To use a cyclone (which all significantly reduce flow) and retain sufficient air flow the impeller needs to be ~15" and it will requires about a 4HP motor.

Are we talking 3 phase motor or single phase on a 15A circuit?

Originally Posted by BobL

3) Machinery dust port MUST be opened up to 150 mm to make use of the 150mm ducting.

Not feasible on my table saw, as the existing 100mm port goes to a shroud that sits under the blade. It would be impossible to enlarge the input to the shroud to 150mm because it would prevent the blade from tilting. It could possibly be done on the thicknesser, but I find the chip collection on that pretty good.

Are we talking 3 phase motor or single phase on a 15A circuit?

4HP SP technically requires a 20A circuit.
4HP 3P on a SP-3P VFD can be made to run very safely on a 15A (even 10A if you know how to program the VFD)
Using a VFD means the motor can run at say 60Hz producing about 20% more air flow - however this does require a 15A SP circuit.

Not feasible on my table saw, as the existing 100mm port goes to a shroud that sits under the blade. It would be impossible to enlarge the input to the shroud to 150mm because it would prevent the blade from tilting. It could possibly be done on the thicknesser, but I find the chip collection on that pretty good.

My TS was like that so I completely removed the shroud and semi sealed up the cabinet around the blade and put a 150mm duct on the cabinet. It was a very easy mod.
BTW chip collection is rarely a heath issue - its more the invisible dust that is a health issue.

Originally Posted by BobL

4HP SP technically requires a 20A circuit.

OK. It's no drama anyway as I have a 3 phase socket in the workshop. It's just a fair distance from the DE.

Originally Posted by BobL

My TS was like that so I completely removed the shroud and semi sealed up the cabinet around the blade and put a 150mm duct on the cabinet. It was a very easy mod.

I looked at doing that too. I wanted to fit a sloped dust chute in the bottom of the cabinet. Unfortunately the spindle moulder is in the table saw cabinet. When the spindle is retracted the motor almost touches the floor. It's very 'busy' inside the cabinet and it doesn't lend itself to mods. I'll have a look and see whether I could add a second 100mm duct in there to mop up some of the dust the blade shroud misses.

Originally Posted by BobL

The cyclone design is from the 1960's so it will generate a high back pressure which will affect the overall air flow..

What do you think of these Bob?

https://www.timbecon.com.au/super-dust-deputy-diy-kits

So it turns out my existing DE is 2HP. For some reason I thought it was 1 ½. So it has more grunt than the Carbatec one I linked in my OP.

I may have to eat my words about not building a DE from parts. It seems the ones on offer from H&F and Carbatec are not great. I'm wondering whether I can utilise the motor and impeller I already have to build a unit? It's a 12" impeller which is a long way shy of the 15" BobL recommended. But it's paid for.

Would this motor/impeller in a DIY housing with a 5" Super Dust Deputy and pleated filter make a reasonable DE?

Originally Posted by jack620

So it turns out my existing DE is 2HP. For some reason I thought it was 1 ½. So it has more grunt than the Carbatec one I linked in my OP.

I may have to eat my words about not building a DE from parts. It seems the ones on offer from H&F and Carbatec are not great. I'm wondering whether I can utilise the motor and impeller I already have to build a unit? It's a 12" impeller which is a long way shy of the 15" BobL recommended. But it's paid for.

Would this motor/impeller in a DIY housing with a 5" Super Dust Deputy and pleated filter make a reasonable DE?

I've written many times about the issues around using third party cyclones on DCs.

For optimum efficiency Cyclones need to be appropriately designed and matched to suit impellers/motor.
It turns out that the smaller the motor and impeller the larger (not smaller) the cyclone needs to be.

I know many woodies use these small cyclones at chip separators and claim they see very little fine dust in their collection bags so they must be working.
While that may be so what they fail to appreciate is that these small cyclones significantly reduce the air flow so much that most of the fine dust never gets collected in the first place and besides, the dust that is not collected is so fine that it can't be seen.

With WHO recommended PM2.5 dust levels at ~100 ug/g this means ~ 6mg of fine dust (~1/10th of the volume of a toothpick) is enough PM2.5 dust to contaminate the air in a 6 x 4 x 2.7m shed.

Getting a handle on fine dust is not something you can use your eyes for. About the only way to have some level of confidence regarding this is to maximise the air flow. This is done by placing the least restriction possible in the way of the flow so for a small DC this means no cyclones and keeping the filters clean.

Originally Posted by BobL

Cyclones need to be appropriately designed and matched to suit impellers/motor.
It turns out that the smaller the motor and impeller the larger (not smaller) the cyclone needs to be.

That’s not what Oneida say. They reckon if the cyclone is too large it won’t work properly. I assume that’s because the air isn’t rotating fast enough to generate the required centrifugal force to fling the dust onto the wall of the cyclone and therefore decelerate it.

Originally Posted by BobL

This is done by placing the least restriction possible in the way of the flow so for a small DC this means no cyclones and keeping the filters clean.

But everything I’m reading suggests the cyclone is a big help in keeping the filters clean. So while it might reduce airflow a little, it stops the filter clogging prematurely which is a nett benefit.

Originally Posted by jack620

That’s not what Oneida say. They reckon if the cyclone is too large it won’t work properly. I assume that’s because the air isn’t rotating fast enough to generate the required centrifugal force to fling the dust onto the wall of the cyclone and therefore decelerate it.

It's not that straight forward according to Bill Pentz's fluid dynamic people.

But everything I’m reading suggests the cyclone is a big help in keeping the filters clean. So while it might reduce airflow a little, it stops the filter clogging prematurely which is a nett benefit.

Unfortunately its not a little, a poorly matched cyclone - impeller- motor impedes flow by as much as 45%. So it matters very little what cyclone filters if the dust is not collected in the first place. Thats the reason the Clearvue uses a closely matched cyclone - impeller- motor and why it uses a 15"+ impeller and a 4HP motor.

Jack in case you haven't seen Bill's site. Dust Collection Research - Home It is a long read and some of it is repeated a lot (for the people that skim and cherry pick the areas of the site) but well worth the read.

Never mind if you already read it.

Pete

Thanks Pete. I have spent the last few days reading BP’s website when I can. There’s a huge amount of info there. He could certainly be a little more concise! I have actually just made a sketchup drawing of his 14” blower scaled down to suit my 12” impeller. However I’m not convinced the effort would be worth the performance improvement. A larger blower with a 3-4hp motor would be worth putting together I think.

I just priced a 15” Clear Vue impeller. Ouch. Also Bill’s cyclones seem very tall and wouldn’t work in my shop I don’t think.

I’ll keep reading.