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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
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    Austin, TX, USA
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    Default ClearVue CV1800 vs Felder AF22

    I live in central Texas, USA. I work out of a detached garage that is about 10 ft x 20 ft (3m x 6m). This has been my workshop for 20 years.

    I like to use hand tools, but I do have a bandsaw, thickness planer, and drill press that I keep setup and use regularly. To conserve space, I keep my compound miter saw, track saw, and router put away and bring them out only when the hand tool method is too onerous.

    My current dust collector is a single bagger, 1.5 hp motor with a 10" impeller I bought ages ago. I have one of the cheap particle counters from Alibaba and the dust level is not much different than outside, even with the dust collector running. At one end is the garage door and the other end is a person door. Most of the time I have both open, so the cross ventilation surely helps. Nevertheless, it's time to upgrade the dust collector in hopes of being safer and saving floor space. I really don't want my hobby to be dust collection, especially since I prefer working by hand.

    Idea 1: Build a small shed behind the shop (behind 10' wall) and install a ClearVue CV1800, exhausted outside.

    Idea 2: Mount a Felder AF22 on an outside wall (along 20' wall), under the eave and build an vented enclosure around it.

    Because the Felder is overpriced, these two machines are roughly the same price delivered to my door. The only reason I'm considering the AF22 is that it just seems so much easier to assemble and install because I don't have to build a whole separate building, put together a bunch of plastic/mdf, and hoist a heavy motor eight feet in the air. However, the filter on the AF22 seems very, very small, so I am concerned it will clog.

    Am I ridiculous to consider the Felder, or should I just get to work on a ClearVue installation?

    Mark

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada.
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    Default

    Felder is pretty good at hiding the specs on that DC but I eventually found on another website that it is 3hp. It would seem that since you have to enclose both to some extent anyway going with the CV would make the most sense to me. More power and no filters to futz with. You haven't said how close the neighbours are? If they are close then sound proof enclosures will be needed for both choices. If not then they would only be needed to keep the weather off. You could look at the CV Pentz EF5. It costs more but being all metal requires minimal enclosing if at all (you'd have to see if the motor is wet rated) and it goes together quickly. The cost of it being weighed against the materials and effort to make a shed. A cheap boat winch or come-a-long will lift the motor if you don't have any NBA friends to help.

    Pete

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Newcastle
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    1,014

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    I have an AF16. Bought on similar lines to your thinking - a very quick setup. 30 mins and you suck.
    It is excellent quality - like all Felder stuff, you pays your money, but you know what you're getting. It always sucks, doesn't clog, and the bag is easy to empty. I use it for the bandsaw, slider and jointer/planer.

    I always bought mine as a temporising measure, with a plan to go for a cyclone when I had the time to build sound proof enclosures and run huge pipes.

    In your case, if you're building an outside enclosure anyway, and your current collection gets you by, I'd take the time to go the Clearvue route.

  5. #4
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    Jan 2020
    Location
    Austin, TX, USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QC Inspector View Post
    Felder is pretty good at hiding the specs on that DC but I eventually found on another website that it is 3hp.
    The AF22 listed on the US store says it is 4.0 hp / 3.0 kW.

    Quote Originally Posted by QC Inspector View Post
    You haven't said how close the neighbours are?
    Yes, I have neighbors close by and it's important to me that I'm courteous.

    I had not considered mounting a metal cyclone entirely outside. The noise might be a problem, but that's definitely an idea. Grizzly also sells a metal cyclone, G0441, that looks quite similar to ClearVue and has a good fan curve.

    Mark

  6. #5
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    Saskatoon, SK, Canada.
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    With close neighbours you'll want to enclose whatever you decide on. There are a number of threads here that address that including the sound baffling of the exhaust air.

    The Grizzly's are Asian copies of the Pentz cyclone. You'll have to call Grizzly to see if they sell them without the filters. To compare the CV Pentz EF5 fairly you would need to look at the G0442 as they have similar size motors.

    Pete

  7. #6
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    Helensburgh
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    Buy a THREE PHASE CV if you have near neighbours as the speed and thus noise can be controlled by a Variable Frequency Drive. I know in the US 99% of dust extractors are single phase but a 3 phase unit controlled by a VFD has a far far lower start current requirement as well. Have a chat to Cathy @ CV and mention my recommendation. A VFD can be used to increase the performance of any 3 phase extractor as well by raising the motor speed.

    The other reason a CV is a better thing is the Felder uses bags compared to a drum on the CV and I would even pay a premium to avoid having to deal with bags. The Asian cyclones are a poor copy of the CV but if venting to atmosphere the separation performance is not such a big issue if the exhaust does not impact anyone and gets dissipated to the outside of the workshop. If recirculating through filters then the CV wins every time because of its excellent separation performance that is above 99%.

    Edit.....

    I am actually hot rodding a 3 phase AF22 at the moment by adding a VFD which will lift its performance because the motor can be run at a faster speed. During the discussions on this I found that the AF22 has a smaller impeller than the CV 1800. If the OP intends to use a CV Max then the Max will hit the Felder out of the ball park in performance. In Australian I would say hit it for six.
    CHRIS

  8. #7
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    Chris apparently Cathy has moved on to another job and no longer works at Clear Vue. I think it was Rushton that mentioned it on another forum. Paul is doing it for now.

    Pete

  9. #8
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    Perth
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    Given you mainly use hand tools, in your small workshop the AF22 would be fine as long as you use 6" ducting and open up machine ports to that size. I have a 42m^ shop (yours is <half that) and I had a 3HP DC with a 13" impeller and dust measurements showed this was sufficient to keep the dust levels at levels not that different to outside my shed. I subsequently put 3P 4HP motor onto the DC but that was more because I could rather than because I needed it. I do have l2 large exhaust fans I can utilise and use these mainly to vent hot air from the shed although it does come in handy when I forget to, or am too lazy to, turn on the Dc.

    As far as dust levels while emptying dust bags goes,
    see Dust Exposure while empty DC bags and cleaning filters

    This post shows the amount of exposure to anyone emptying bags of sawdust is not really worth worrying about especially if one wears a mask - anyway, it's about the same as emptying a large cyclone bin. Even cleaning the filters on a DC does not expose the cleaner to as much dust exposure as one might think. So while it's not pleasant its not unsafe.

    As I say in the above link;
    . . . it looks like emptying the bags and cleaning the filters is not that big a deal especially if like me you only do it every so often (In my case its months). Of course if you were doing it every few days or even weeks it's a right PITA and I'd be getting a cyclone.
    It sounds like you are not in that league.


    As an aside . . . . . . .
    Last year a friend of mine bought a small WW business housed in a 140m^2 industrial unit. He bought the whole business basically for the cost of buying the gear in the workshop. As he is now basically retired he's not intending to make a full living out of the business and mainly bought it to save him teh cost and headaches of setting up his own workshop. Also he only has a one garage workshop at home so would have to move to get more space. Running the business basically pays for the operating expenses and for that he gets a spacious well equipped workshop.

    It came with a bunch of 3P WW equipment, eg very large Euro Slider, and a 12" Euro planer thicknesser. A 21" Ripping Bandsaw and an AF22. I also organised for him a 3P Dewalt radial arm saw with a 14" blade.

    The SP equipment includes a DP, a small belt sander and a wide assortment of Festool power tools.

    The main thing he cuts is ply, up to 25mm thick. For the business he mostly buys DAR harwood stock machined to cross sectional size and uses the RAS to cut to length. So even though he's at the workshop 5 days a week he's making less dust than most industrial Wwork places and perhaps closer to a stay home DIY operator.

    When I saw the workshop before he took over the business it was covered in dust the first thing I thought he could do with was to upgrade his AF22 to a Clearvue or at the very least put a VFD on the AF22.
    However we thought we'd first check the actual dust levels while he working.

    When tested for dust the PM2.5 dust levels over two week period it came in consistently at under 30 µg/m^3 with the odd short peak at 50µg/m3 but for most of the time it was no different than air. FWIW Perth's annual average is 16 µg/m^3. A significant contributor to this in that he has two 4 x 4m roller door openings at both ends of the workshop and the DC is parked along side the back roller door - highlighting the significance of ventilation.

    Based on this, there was no reason for him to upgrade the DC or even put a VFD on it ,unless perhaps he were to change his work practices. He doesn't clean the DC filter even though he makes about 2 bags worth of chips a week and does not empty the bags as he sells the sawdust in the bags, passing the cost of the bag onto people buying the sawdust.

  10. #9
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    Jan 2020
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    Austin, TX, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Buy a THREE PHASE CV if you have near neighbours as the speed and thus noise can be controlled by a Variable Frequency Drive.
    Thanks Chris Parks, now my goal of not making dust collection my hobby turned into researching phase converters and VFDs. It sounds like extra expense and hassle to me, when I really just want an on/off switch. I think I would prefer to just focus on sound abatement, do what I can, and know that when I turn on suck, the suck will be good.

    I know BobL also uses the VFD to make it quieter inside his workshop, so I guess that's an additional consideration.

    I have done a lot of reading about dust collection and the Aussies are the only ones who regularly talk about VFDs, I think so you can get up to 60 hertz. Am I missing anything else big?

    My decision about an AF22 got a whole lot easier because I just remeasured and the eave is not as wide as I remember and the AF22 is deeper than I remembered. The AF22 is 20.5" deep and my eave is 21.25" deep, so there's not room to make a good sound abatement enclosure without adding more roof, which kind of defeats the purpose.

    On to sizing a ClearVue enclosure...

    Mark

  11. #10
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    Helensburgh
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    VFD's came into play in Australia when I started importing CV's as it was the only way to get to 60hz. We used the 3 phase American motor that ran on 220V because we could run the VFD from our domestic supply of 220V single phase and the VFD turned our 220V single phase into 3 phase at 220V. Personally I would not buy a single phase dust extractor for a bet but some woodworkers might not have that luxury.

    The advantages of a VFD are several

    Low start current requirements.

    Noise and air flow can be controlled from the VFD by varying the motor speed

    The slower ramp up is far kinder on the motor

    A remote control can be used to start and stop the VFD


    As for emptying bags and not getting covered in dust I have yet to see it but most of the bag units I have seen and pulled out have been large ones in a commercial operation. I saw one the other day and the owner had stopped using the unit due to the bag emptying problems.
    CHRIS

  12. #11
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    My decision about an AF22 got a whole lot easier because I just remeasured and the eave is not as wide as I remember and the AF22 is deeper than I remembered. The AF22 is 20.5" deep and my eave is 21.25" deep, so there's not room to make a good sound abatement enclosure without adding more roof, which kind of defeats the purpose.
    On to sizing a ClearVue enclosure...
    Without taking the bin size into account the depth requirement for the Clearvue is 21.5" so it sounds like you could be out of luck there as well.
    The other sizing issue some folks find problems with the Clearvue is the height requirement.
    Using a 27" tall sawdust container requires 95.5".
    Some people use smaller bins to help get around this problem.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Huntsville, AL USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    The other sizing issue some folks find problems with the Clearvue is the height requirement.
    Using a 27" tall sawdust container requires 95.5".
    Some people use smaller bins to help get around this problem.
    BobL has this right. In my former low ceiling workshop, I was finally able to get the overall height of my Clear Vue CV1800 installation down to 90 1/2" using a short 30 gallon dust barrel (22") and really squeezing down the distance from the motor mounting plate and top of the blower. It was tight. To get it any lower would have required an even short dust barrel.

    Clear Vue CV1800.png

  14. #13
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    The problem with going short on the bin size is the bin should not be allowed to fill up close to the top otherwise this starts to compromise the separation ability of the cyclone. This happens well before it starts to spit out the chips. With a 22" drum I would be emptying at no more than about 18".

  15. #14
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    Mark is installing outside so depending on soil, slope, existing pavement etc., he could dig down a little such that the barrel is a foot lower. When full it could be dragged to the side before being hoisted up or slid out a ramp. Then the 22" barrel becomes 34" or even more. Needless to say not a good idea if drainage doesn't allow.

    Pete

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    The problem with going short on the bin size is the bin should not be allowed to fill up close to the top otherwise this starts to compromise the separation ability of the cyclone. This happens well before it starts to spit out the chips. With a 22" drum I would be emptying at no more than about 18".
    Agree. Viewing window into the bin, bin level sensor you hope never to trigger, regular emptying required.

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