Thread: Clearvue install & shop layout - thoughts and feedback appreciated!

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

- Dust extractor will be a Clearvue - but I am not sure on whether an 1800 or Max?
- What size ducting needs to be run? The longest run will be extractor to table saw, 3-4 metres at most. I am thinking 150mm ought to be sufficient?

- The extractor will be housed in a double-thick cabinet for noise abatement (i.e. walls of 240mm thick which will be (from outside to inside) plywood, 90mm studs with Bradford Soundscreen, 25mm MDF, 90mm studs with Bradford Soundscreen, and a final layer of 25mm MDF):
(1) Where do I vent this, and how? I am not keen on venting to outside the building envelope (I don't want to puncture it)
(2) I believe, or thought I read somewhere that the Clearvue should be doing such a good job, the air it expels is safe to breathe?
(3) If so, can I make a return duct back to the workshop side?
(4) Will this proposed enclosure (which is being done for noise abatement) cause a problem/cause the motor to overheat?

I'd very much appreciate thoughts on the above, and any advice or wisdom that people are willing to share! Thank you!

Congratulations on gaining the extra space for your shop! And congratulations on your decision to go with a Clear Vue cylone dust collection system. I've installed both a CV1800 in my home shop, and now a CVMAX in the community shop where I now live. After living with both, I can say that I'd be perfectly happy with the CV1800 in a single user shop. I did have the optional 16" impeller in my CV1800 because I was going to have some challenges navigating ducts around some obstacles in my home shop. Clear Vue agreed with my thought that the optional 16" impeller might be a good choice in these circumstances but saw no reason to upgrade to a CVMAX.

In the new community shop, we expected to have more than one tool in operation at a time and this is what the CVMAX is designed to accommodate. However, our experience this far is that it is still happier when there is just a single tool in operation - the draw is terrific, and noticeably reduced when the second blast gate is opened. Still functional, but just not the absolute beast that it is when only one blast gate is open.

For the CVMAX installation, we used 8" (200mm) duct for the primary trunk line and 6" (150mm) duct for all the drops. For the CV1800 installation, I used 6" duct throughout.

In both installations, all of the blast gates are on the 6" ducts. The systems were never choked down to a single 4" duct, even if a second 4" port is left open and unused.

In both installations, I vented back into the shop space using two Wynn Environmental 9B300NANO filters that Clear Vue bundles here in the U.S. (seems to be the same filters listed at clearvueoz.com.au). The exhaust air is completely clear of dust as demonstrated by my Dylos particle counter. Since you are placing your cyclone in a sound insulated closet, be sure to leave an exhaust opening at least 2x the area of your intake ducts. If there is resistance at the exhaust you are limiting the function of the system - it's a single system. There is a large amount of information here about exhaust baffles to control sound that you can research. In our case, we used a single ceiling to floor exhaust channel measuring 17"x24" in cross-section.

Good luck on your planning and installation!

I think you’ll spend more time moving machines around and setting them up than actually working. I reckon that it will become tiresome very quickly. But, I’m coming from a professional user’s position, which obviously would be more time managed than hobbyist work. I still wouldn’t want to be moving stuff every time though. I like to be able to walk over to something, open the dust gate, and fire it up and get stuck in.

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

I think you’ll spend more time moving machines around and setting them up than actually working. I reckon that it will become tiresome very quickly. But, I’m coming from a professional user’s position, which obviously would be more time managed than hobbyist work. I still wouldn’t want to be moving stuff every time though. I like to be able to walk over to something, open the dust gate, and fire it up and get stuck in.

I hear you, and there is a lot of logic with what you say - I was looking for a solution to achieve that initially, but the problem is - I can't find a way to make that work in the space available with the machines I have.

I'd be delighted for some "out of the box" ideas to make it possible though!

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

I'd be delighted for some "out of the box" ideas to make it possible though!

My shop is less than 3m x 6m on the inside, so I am significantly more constrained. Here's my suggestions:
1. Prioritize your machines. I actually prefer to use hand tools, so I have prioritized all my hand tools to be immediately accessible. Next, my bandsaw has to be always accessible. But my compound miter saw is put away and has to be setup for use. When I'm working, I decide, "is it worth setting up the compound miter saw, or should I just do this by hand?" You could do the same in a machine shop.

2. Consider the vertical space. For example, the infeed or outfeed for the bandsaw may be able to go over the thickness planer or workbench.

3. If you have to move a machine, make it a short move, like just pulling it out from the wall. From the picture, it looks like if you need to thickness a long board that the machine will have to be moved a lot. (But maybe you don't use long boards.) Also, the less you have to move a machine, the easier it will be to connect dust collection.

4. Make sure you set aside free space to put the thing you are actually building. Looks like you have that now.

5. Don't be afraid to get rid of tools. Workshop space is the most valuable resource I have. If a tool isn't providing enough value, then I pack it away and try working without it for a while. If I don't use it, then it goes up for sale.

Mark

The best advice I can give you after designing many systems over many years is run fixed duct to the machines and not take the machines to the duct. I have a 9 x 7.5 shed and all my machines are fixed in place. The 1800 will run one port open at a time and unless you have two people working in the shed that is all you need. A Max will of course run multiple ports open but will cost substantially more to install. The best all round system is an 1800 running at 70hz through a 150mm duct system, this will run two ports open but not as well as a max at 60hz using bigger a bigger main duct. PM me if you want to have a chat to clarify anything you are not sure about.

You can either vent the clearvue outside or the exhaust needs to be filtered using the wynn filters listed above and the air returned to the shed without restriction (can be baffled insulated for noise but not flow restricted)

I might suggest something slightly different to Chris in that at least to begin with while you are trying to find a suitable layout that works for you, don't make your ducting too permanent to begin with. I just foil taped my 150mm pvc together as I changed the layout three times, tried to limit cutting it down so I didn't waste much of it.

After a year or so once you settle on a layout that works you can probably make something more permanent.

If your workbench is mostly for hand tool work you could look to relocate all hand tool work into your adjacent room with the sink, away from the worst dust creators, possibly have that room climate controlled and closed off to the 'machine workshop' and then you can relocate the sheet goods storage into the room where you will require the sheet goods. I think having to cart sheet goods into one room to store and then back out of that room through a roller door, around and and back through another roller door is a bit inefficient but if you're not using much of it i can see why it might be appealing.

Keeping the dust collector in that adjacent room still seems like a logical idea as the sound is kept away from you while you use machinery and then when using the desk or hand tools / workbench in that adjacent room the dust collector wouldn't typically be running. You just have to figure out a way to pipe the inlet and exhaust to/from the collector back into the workshop.

Just some ideas for you to think about at least. Have fun!

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

- The Lathe and Bench Drill and Mortiser cabinet that backs onto the dust extractor in the next room is where any machine that is in use (except the table saw) will be moved to for use - so it could be thought of as the "machine in use" station

First, as Chris Parks and others have opined, I strongly suggest you run fixed hard duct to your machines and not attempt to move machines as used. The CV1800 will have no difficulty with duct runs across the length and width of your shop space. In any event, your proposed "machine in use" location is not optimal per the next point.

Second, pay attention to Clear Vue's recommendation to have at least a 5' (corrected, thanks QC) straight run of pipe into the cyclone's intake to provide turbulence settlement space before the air reaches the cyclone. This allows for best particle separation.

Third, work to arrange your tools, as much as possible, for straight runs of duct with minimal turns. Every turn adds resistance. If you can make all of your connections using only single 45-degree elbows, that would be ideal.

Fourth, a main trunk line running from the cyclone diagonally across your shop would allow drop lines to your machines using 45-degree wyes. Keep all drops at 150mm solid ducts as close to the tool's port as possible

Fifth, take Chris Parks up on his offer for a chat - I'm sure you will find that chat invaluable.

"to have at least a 5" straight run of pipe into the cyclone's intake"

I'm pretty sure Rushton meant to type 5' (feet) not 5" (inches).

I would also advocate having ducting at least to several locations around the room. Then even if they are not all hard plumbed you only need to move the machine a few feet.

Pete

I've worked with both moveable and fixed machinery and by far prefer the latter. A half way solution is if to have machinery lined up adjacent to each other alongside a wide alley and move them the short distance into the alley for access. While this is still involves moving a machine (ie still a major PITA) this does mean you can still use fixed ducting and a slightly longer flexy connection.

Doe to minimal shed space I do have two moveable machines, A 10" thickness/planer. I can use it in situ for lengths up to about 1.5m but for longer than this that I have to move it to face the shed door so the workpieces can go out the door.
The other machine is my mitre saw which sits on a pump up trolley under my TS. When I use it I for long pieces I also have to align it with the shed door. I have play around ad-nauseum with dust connection for it since I cannot use fixed ducting for it. I've made a few mods to the saws dust intake so I can get away with using a shop vac and a 1200 CFM exhaust/ventilation fan located on the ceiling directly above the saw. Mitre saw cutting (especially in a DIY setting) is not a continuous process so dust is produced in intermittent fashion and so the exhaust/ventilation fan easily keeps up with it.

As others have already said, if you want to use a Cleavue inside you will need to add air filters. But you will also want to do something about the noise especially if you hope to run it faster via a VFD.

I have a small shed - 6m x 4.5m. I only have a modified 2hp system but it’s 150mm to some machines, 125 to one and 100mm to two others that can’t be modified to 150mm (Dewalt thicknesser and Carbatec jointer). All machines are connected via flexible hose and reduction in flow as compared to solid hose (measured using pitot tubes and hot wire anemometers) is tiny.
All my machines are on wheels and can be moved, if required. The SCMS and the Router are against the shed side wall and for small jobs they stay there but can be moved out from the wall to suit long timber lengths.
The thicknesser and jointer, which get only used occasionally, are stored against the end wall and need to be wheeled out and connected to the flexible hose, when required. Really, it’s not a biggy - it just requires a bit of planning when building something.
Even the table saw can be moved - when we were building the deck we had to trim a 6m board down from 86mm wide to 63mm wide so we had to position the table saw so we could poke the timber out the door to suit the length.
Unless you have a very large space, I would suggest to have the ability to moved machines to suit the maybe once in a blue moon time that you need to even though they may stay in place for the majority of the time.

Thank you all - lots of food for thought here.

I'm currently playing "scrapbook pickup" with cut-outs of all the machine footprints to try make it all fit and stay in place as much as possible.

@Chris Parks - I probably will reach out via PM in the next few days, let me see what comes of this current tetris game first

Many thanks to all for sharing your thoughts - I have much thinking to do!

I spent a couple of days last week rearranging machines and duct work after working with the previous layout for about 5 years during which time I acquired a few extra machines and learnt a lot about my workflow. It made a huge improvement and I should have done it sooner.

My advice – don’t go for the ultimate layout from the get-go – just get it all working, use it, and then plan on doing an updated layout later.

I use 150 mm storm pipe for ducting with dry joints held together with a couple of tek roofing screws. Easy to install by myself and easy to reuse components.

Also, I think your sound proofing might be a bit of overkill. Bear in mind that when the DE is running, so is a noisy machine, so complete silencing isn’t necessary. I have a remote fob on my belt so I turn on the DE only when the machines are running.

Leigh

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Also, I think your sound proofing might be a bit of overkill. Bear in mind that when the DE is running, so is a noisy machine, so complete silencing isn’t necessary. I have a remote fob on my belt so I turn on the DE only when the machines are running.

Unless independent exhaust fans are used, a DC should be run for some time after a machine has been turned off to scavenge residual fine dust that escapes into the shed.
The length of time the DC should be kept running varies depending on capacity of DC and what has been done.
Irrespective of the size of the DC, sanding large pieces of wood with a big sander might, or extended ripping with a TS, would normally require 20 minutes of post DC shutoff shed air scrubbing, while for a drill press 30s might be long enough.

Not all machines are noisy, Lathes can be as quiet as your sharpening skill determines, while drill presses, small sanders and bandsaws are also not that noisy. Some machines like mitres saws operate on a highly intermittent basis but the DC is not normally turned off between cuts so any reduced noise that can be achieved even if its intermittent is worth having.

I've been doing a bit of playing around with measurements and the like, and wonder if I can bug the brains-trust here with another couple of questions please.

I've taken on board the thought to try and minimise the amount of machine movement, so considered having multiple locations at which machines can be used. I've also taken on board the recommendation of having 5 feet of straight pipe leading into the cyclone to minimise air turbulence.

In the new layout (below), machines are still mobile, but the intent here is to run 150mm extraction ducting along the corner of the wall where it joins the ceiling. From this, along the entire length will be Y joints leading the several "droppers" along the walls. Each of these droppers will normally be closed off with a blast gate, and be opened on demand. Machines being mobile means if long pieces are required at any machine, the neighbourhood machines can be pulled forward a bit, out of the way. I will also caution, machines are just randomly placed right now as a representation, they are not in their final positions:

Overall Shop Layout October 2021.jpg

I will also note that in each of the corners, I intend to use 2 x 45 degree bends with around 300mm of duct in between to lessen the effect of a "corner".

Also to note, as it's a cathedral ceiling, there will be a 25 degree bend along the left, and right ducts in the middle.

The overall run will be around 16 metres before we get to the end, at which I will run the duct to the table saw (again via a blast gate).

Two questions in my mind: (1) Has anyone thoughts or feedback on the new extraction design/layout? (2) Is 16 metres of run too long to then have a table saw running at the end? It is a Sawstop. Side question - should I open the port to 150mm on the saw, or leave it at 100mm, using the remaining capacity to support an overhead extraction over the blade?