Thread: Clearvue install & shop layout - thoughts and feedback appreciated!

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

Additionally to this, if this is inside an enclosure, as I'm sure some of you will have done, how are you keeping your motor cool?

The motor on mine is partially in the cabinet but very close to the underside of the metal roof of the shed and cops the heat from that. I ran it yesterday for well over an hour with no break which I have done before many times and the smoke never seems to escape. BTW mine is getting on for 10 years old now and the motor has zero issues but it is a US made motor as were the first few shipments before I was forced to change to TECO motors sourced in Oz. I have no idea of what motor is now used but seeing as CV's are no longer sold in Oz (at least temporarily) the motor source is no longer a problem.

It is most probably debatable whether the motor or the cyclonic action produces most of the heat but as cyclones are generally only run for short periods heat does not appear to be a huge issue. Actually now thinking about it the Cyclone at Corrimal Men's shed is in an enclosure along with the compressor that supplies air to their blast gate system and is run all day with no apparent side affects. I have never noted if it has venting but knowing how it was installed I would say not.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

but seeing as CV's are no longer sold in Oz (at least temporarily) the motor source is no longer a problem.

Thanks Chris and Bob for the answers, it's much appreciated.

Chris, needless to say the highlighted quote above is something that is news to me - am I right in interpreting this to mean ClearVue units (cyclone, motor, VFD etc) are no longer available here (for now)? The website seems to give no indication of this (though I recognise it may simply not have been updated to reflect this information)?

Stephen Durley told me that he is relinquishing the CV agency in Oz and while he had someone who might possibly be interested nothing has been finalised the last I heard. He has not spoken about the website most probably because he does not know exactly what is going to happen. At this time as far as I know there are no further orders being taken. Back when I relinquished it there was very little interest shown by anyone including some prominent retailers that I approached. If anyone has any further inquiries I suggest speaking to Stephen directly.

By law 3kW 3P motors are required to have a minimum efficiency of about 85% but lets be generous and say that its 90%
This means 10% is lost as heat so a 3KW motor under close to full load generates about 300W of heat which is why a motor fan is needed.
300W in and enclosed space will over heat the motor but as long as that motor is inside sufficient enough an air stream it will not overheat.

However the main reason for venting a DC enclosure is not to cool a motor but to reduce the back pressure on any air flow - if the enclosure is totally sealed no air/dust will be extracted.

The temperature of the air inside a wood dust extracting cyclone will depend on a bunch of factors.
Creating chips generates heat so the air temperature of any extracting dust air flow will increase.
Cyclonic action relies on a low/high pressure divide which in turn generates a high/low temperature, the air inside atmospheric cyclone or tornado is actually cold due to a drop in pressure.
The next factor would be friction of the wood dust with air, other wood dust, ducting and walls of the wood dust cyclone - I have no idea what that would be - maybe someone can measure the temperature of the air inside their shed and then at their cyclone outlet and report back?

Originally Posted by BobL

By law 3kW 3P motors are required to have a minimum efficiency of about 85% but lets be generous and say that its 90%
This means 10% is lost as heat so a 3KW motor under close to full load generates about 300W of heat which is why a motor fan is needed.
300W in and enclosed space will over heat the motor but as long as that motor is inside sufficient enough an air stream it will not overheat.

However the main reason for venting a DC enclosure is not to cool a motor but to reduce the back pressure on any air flow - if the enclosure is totally sealed no air/dust will be extracted.

I'll back Corrimal's experience ahead of any theory because their cyclone has thousands of hours on it and it operates without a break all day. A cyclone that exhausts straight to atmosphere does not need a vented enclosure, the air enters the cyclone and the air exits the cyclone without entering the enclosure.

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

One little detail I neglected to check - if I am putting this in an internal enclosure inside the shed, running it through filters and venting internally through a baffle box, what sort of exit size will be sufficient? My plans at the moment include an exit vent a little larger than double (2x) an 8" pipe (I'm using 6" as incoming ducting). Is that sufficient to not cause back pressure in the system?

I didn't see that anyone directly answered your question, but perhaps I missed it. Your plan for your exit size should be quite adequate at 2x the size of the intake duct, plus a bit.

Edit: Ah, I see BobL thoroughly answered this. Sorry for the duplication.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Stephen Durley told me that he is relinquishing the CV agency in Oz and while he had someone who might possibly be interested nothing has been finalised the last I heard. He has not spoken about the website most probably because he does not know exactly what is going to happen. At this time as far as I know there are no further orders being taken.

I have been in intermittent contact with Stephen over a month or so now with an order for a CV for our local Men's Shed. As last discussed with him just before Christmas he is currently waiting for confirmation of new prices and has indicated a 3-4 months waiting period.

I've looked at all the cyclones that I can see on the market here and can't find another one that meets the Pentz specs. What, if any, is the alternative to a CV here in Oz that meets the Pentz specs, other than building it yourself?

I've built two cyclones to the pentz specs, but that was 15yrs ago and I don't think I can muster the enthusiasm again at our local Shed to embark on another build... understandable given the average age of the membership is now about eighty.

I spoke to him several times before christmas and at that point he had made up his mind to give it away and had someone interested in talking to CV about taking on the sales in this country. CV are the go to recommendation when we are talking to MS's and without that availability thing became difficult but not impossible. When I started CV Oz there was a lot not known or misunderstood and I have begun to understand the market here better. The CV cyclone is a long taper design for a single reason and that is because in the US nearly all installations are filtered and recirculated back to the workshop but that is not the case in Oz. A short taper cyclone exhausting to atmosphere is perfectly adequate for our purposes, there is one in the local MS to me and there is no detectable fall out of the dust that goes out the exhaust. This cyclone has a huge benefit that CV refuses to supply and that is it has a 17" impeller and it gives substantially more flow than a Max. I think 17" is a good size for MS's and several times I have asked CV to make them as a Oz special and they refuse every time. I don't want to get back into supplying dust extractors both for personal reasons and commercial reasons so ABG needs to have someone make a MS special with a 17" impeller which we will then recommend as part of our education program and I am looking at that now because the earliest we will see any more CV's is going to be the last half of this year and at present calculations they will be twice the last listed price. Here is the cyclone Helensburgh MS are using....MWE-207CF Cyclone Unit – Major Woodworking Equipment.

I spoke to Major WW early last year and at that time they were prepared to look at supplying it without the filters etc just the stand but since then the whole world has gone sideways so I have to re-open negotiations with them. Gregory Machinery are having supplier issues but we will keep talking into the New Year and see where things go. The cost of importing has gone through the roof and is somewhere out near the Webb telescope's orbit and manufacturing here has suddenly become substantially more feasible and I must admit I am inclined to go that way because things would be more predictable as far as supply goes or I hope it would be. There is more to this that I don't want to go into at the moment but one thing stands out and that is there is going to ne a drought in the larger cyclone supply in Oz.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I spoke to him several times before christmas and at that point he had made up his mind to give it away and had someone interested in talking to CV about taking on the sales in this country. CV are the go to recommendation when we are talking to MS's and without that availability thing became difficult but not impossible. When I started CV Oz there was a lot not known or misunderstood and I have begun to understand the market here better. The CV cyclone is a long taper design for a single reason and that is because in the US nearly all installations are filtered and recirculated back to the workshop but that is not the case in Oz. A short taper cyclone exhausting to atmosphere is perfectly adequate for our purposes, there is one in the local MS to me and there is no detectable fall out of the dust that goes out the exhaust. This cyclone has a huge benefit that CV refuses to supply and that is it has a 17" impeller and it gives substantially more flow than a Max. I think 17" is a good size for MS's and several times I have asked CV to make them as a Oz special and they refuse every time. I don't want to get back into supplying dust extractors both for personal reasons and commercial reasons so ABG needs to have someone make a MS special with a 17" impeller which we will then recommend as part of our education program and I am looking at that now because the earliest we will see any more CV's is going to be the last half of this year and at present calculations they will be twice the last listed price. Here is the cyclone Helensburgh MS are using....MWE-207CF Cyclone Unit – Major Woodworking Equipment.

I spoke to Major WW early last year and at that time they were prepared to look at supplying it without the filters etc just the stand but since then the whole world has gone sideways so I have to re-open negotiations with them. Gregory Machinery are having supplier issues but we will keep talking into the New Year and see where things go. The cost of importing has gone through the roof and is somewhere out near the Webb telescope's orbit and manufacturing here has suddenly become substantially more feasible and I must admit I am inclined to go that way because things would be more predictable as far as supply goes or I hope it would be. There is more to this that I don't want to go into at the moment but one thing stands out and that is there is going to be a drought in the larger cyclone supply in Oz.

Thanks for all of that Chris.

Very helpful.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The CV cyclone is a long taper design for a single reason and that is because in the US nearly all installations are filtered and recirculated back to the workshop but that is not the case in Oz. A short taper cyclone exhausting to atmosphere is perfectly adequate for our purposes, there is one in the local MS to me and there is no detectable fall out of the dust that goes out the exhaust.

This is a very interesting observation I had never considered. Having a shorter taper also reduces the height requirement.

I bet even in the US there would be a market for a strong, short cyclone that vents outside.

Mark

Originally Posted by mwells

This is a very interesting observation I had never considered. Having a shorter taper also reduces the height requirement.

I bet even in the US there would be a market for a strong, short cyclone that vents outside.

Mark

Mark you have that with the bigger Laguna *Flux cyclones and the similar competitor offerings. You just need to remove the filters and either keep them in case you want to sell the cyclone in the future or sell the filters to people wanting replacements. What would be a more popular offering would be to have a diverter gate so you could vent to the outside when the weather is favourable and through the filters when it isn't. Even that isn't impossible to setup on your own.

Pete

So, getting back to the original post, midnight man did you rejig your layout and get rid of the home office or what happened?

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

What would be a more popular offering would be to have a diverter gate so you could vent to the outside when the weather is favourable and through the filters when it isn't.

Pete

That would be my ideal setup, Pete.

Vent outside for most of the year but circulate during heatwaves (we are definitely getting more of those) and on chilly mornings.

One point to keep in mind is that the 'longer cone ratio' is still needed if pushing the exhaust through filters. By longer cone ratio I am referring to Bill Pentz' commonly used 1.64 cone length ratio, including on the Clearview, which Bill actually refers to as his 'short cone ratio'. His recommended long cone ration is actually 3:1. On Bill's advice I built mine to that ratio and it is an excellent performer. You just have to have the ceiling height that will accommodate it inside or build a tall structure to house it outside... probably a bridge too far for many backyard workshops.

Here's the cone on my 3:1 cyclone... and that is without a motor and blower on top and drop bucket below...

cyclone cone 3 to 1 ratio.jpg

The cone ratios on many of the commercial cyclones I see on offer look very height challenged to me...

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

So, getting back to the original post, midnight man did you rejig your layout and get rid of the home office or what happened?

Yes, I have rejigged my layout, and the original office is giving way to a hand-tool room, with the larger, original space now dedicated as a machine shop.

Layout for that has been redesigned around the dust extractor in a new location, and all measurements and everything calculated.

Then I heard Chris' news on the ClearVue front, and now I'm back to chewing everything over (yet again) realising that if the CV increases in price as indicated, that might take that option off the table - and not wanting to vent dust outside due to the design of the shop and other factors has me doing a bit more head-scratching.

I have relatives in the USA, which might mean I can get my hands on goodies direct from ClearVue if need be/opportunity arises, but first step on that front will be to contact the local distributor - I'd like to "do the right thing" in that regard, and not step on toes etc.

I even took a look at the Laguna C Flux and P Flux, but they are out of stock, probably shouldn't vent back into the workshop, and the manufacturer page tells me "New models coming soon"...

Dilemmas!