Thread: Another Cyclone build series

Originally Posted by Tom trees

Hello folks
Here's another Cyclone build series, should Jer Schmid's creation be a bit large for some.
Looks promising in regards to getting something half decent

2 HP DIY Cyclone Dust Collection: Part 1, Laying out the steel cyclone separator - YouTube

In the words of Crocodile Dundee....that's not a cyclone, that's a cyclone...

AMS's cyclone.jpg

Well, it is a cyclone, but my Dyson vacuum cleaner is also a cyclone.

The modifications he has made to the 2HP blower unit look like they are heading in the right direction, but he might as well put a wet finger in front of the exhaust to take the wind speed measurements.

I expect he will get good chip collector out of his setup. What we know from Bill Pentz' research is that his design will not be efficient at fine dust separation. That's OK if he is exhausting outside, but he will need very good filtration if exhausting back into the workshop.

"I expect he will get good chip collector out of his setup. What we know from Bill Pentz' research is that his design will not be efficient at fine dust separation."

This is where I get a bit confused regarding comments like this.
I'd be happy if anyone could put me straight on a few things.

Screenshot-2022-12-3 2 HP DIY Cyclone Dust Collection Part 4, final assembly and testing - YouTu.jpg

I'm not sure if you mean the fact that this 2hp motor is getting plumbed with many long runs...
Could statements like the highlighted ones be said for just two machines right beside the extractor?

That's a pleated Wynn filter which I presume is the correct spec,
It's only a single filter unlike Jer's, which I presume may have some impact on things, perhaps it might be too little surface area
and destroy the weave, if a larger motor was used, just a guess.


Been a long time since I've visited Bill Pentz's website, and seem to remember a bit more on the filtration side of things.
Surely the dudes got a whole lot more performance than a chip bag.
I guess I need be better informed about this, but I find myself glazing over Bill's website with all the technical detail.

From what little I gleaned from reading,
I'd hazard a guess around twice as good as a dusty bag, provided the filter stays clean.

I'd love to know what I'm missing in simple terms about this,
should I be waay of the mark

Cheers
Tom

I'm caught up now on some unavoidable commitments over the next few days, but will get back to a reply to you post after that.

Hopefully others will contribute in the meantime.

Ignoring any ducting configuration or filtration that he has connected, or will connect, to his cyclone... so just looking at his cyclone and blower... even with the larger impeller (it looks like a 14"), a 2HP motor is not going to achieve the air speeds required with 6" ducting.

According to Bill Pentz...
Although most of the small shop vendors have adopted changes from my web pages to reduce the internal turbulence and increase airflow efficiency, they still have not fixed their separation problems. Most continue to pump too much dust into too open filters which quickly ruins these filters. This poor separation also causes our shops to build up dangerously unhealthy dust levels. I only recommend using these types of cyclones if you buy at least a 3 hp unit turning no less than a 14" diameter impeller, and you toss the filters then exhaust the air directly outside.


An efficient cyclone (ie efficient at fine dust separation) that is matched to a 6" ducting system requires an overhead of approx 1HP to run the cyclone. So, of the 2HP that he is using, only 1HP is left to achieve the required air speeds of about 1,000 CFM for fine dust removal.

Bill again... careful testing by air engineers shows we need closer to 1000 CFM for effective fine dust collection at our larger and dustier tools to pull in the slow moving dust before it gets dispersed by normal room air currents.

That's not going to happen with the HP he has. Adding a filter will only further limit air flow he can achieve.

As for the cyclone design itself, his components and proportions all seem wrong from what I know. For example, his cone ratio is about 1:1, which is way off anything that Bill Pentz recommends. Longer cone ratios are known to be more efficient at fine dust separation, but come at a higher cost in the power required to run them. The absence of any ramp also indicates a departure from better cyclone design.

The first time I looked at the videos I turned the sound off and quickly scanned through them to see what he was on about..Subsequently I went back and scanned through the [CC], which included the following...

"According to my minimal research... "

"Hopefully, ideally, the heavy stuff, the dust and chips are going to fall into this barrel"

So, to be fair to him, I don't think he was ever after fine dust collection, just chip and heavy saw dust collection and separation. He was depending on the filter to do any fine dust capture.

During his test run he got more 'stuff' dropping into the bucket below the filter from just two handfuls of shavings than I've collected there in total in well over a decade. If anyone wants to build a cyclone system read Bill Pentz' website and use his design (see attache spreadsheet). It's freely available!

I too admit to scanning through the videos, mainly because I don't need to watch someone drill every hole and see a starting introduction of over a minute long. He also said multiple times through all four of his videos that he didn't think it was going to work. One thing I noticed in the 4th/last video was some chips swirling around the inside of the inlet long after the sawdust was tossed in, which to me showed it wasn't working very well. You can chose to copy his methods but at least copy the Oneida cyclone from scaled pictures if you don't want to make the Pentz design.

Pete

Yea, don't replicate my design if you're looking to nail it. This was more or less a learning experiement using what I had laying around. At some point in the future I'll be replacing alot of components. But so far this has been a big improvement on my larger machines just using 6inch flex duct. I'll post updates as I get the ducting in, have no idea when that will be.

Thanks for watching though! And if you have questions, shoot.

Thanks Neil for the detailed reply in regards to explaining things in a down to earth way, whilst also being specific.
And Just for the record @Inspector I wasn't thinking of winging it, but posted this as I guessed it be somewhat against the rules of good cyclone principals, which is somewhat my intention, well at least as a temporary deal.

(although I do believe he used a 15" impeller, I cannot find this bit, but it's an upgrade from Wynn.)

Perhaps you folks would take a different route for the use that suits me, i.e near exclusively hand tool woodworking, very little/no sanding,
large welded frame bandsaw, better at capturing dust compared to a compact saw, and perhaps a half hour per month on the TS for special operations
and leave afterwards for as long as it takes.
Needing to do so is no issue, usually I have to take a break from work for other reasons.

Basically looking for something which I could run after the use of my machines for the time being, possibly a powered respirator in the future.
Perhaps you would suggest a shop vac or two instead,
and multiple air filters.
Finances do not allow leccy upgrade, and seems I could get a three phase 5hp induction motor unit with 15" impeller and de-rate accordingly, with a VFD which has this feature ... for the same money or not much more than a decent shop vac,
and perhaps get the supply sorted in time for proper usage.


I do plan on making air filters down the road, but not expecting miracles with such units.
Not sure if that might make you folks toes curl or not,
but to me, a cyclone build makes sense, as I've got more time than money, and not rushed about anything,
been too sore to move about for the past month or so, gotta have some sorta long term aim for my work,
hopefully that might somewhat explain my odd proposal.

Some interesting things you've pointed out regarding the length of the unit,
I'll admit I thought Bill's suggestions/emphasis were in regards to making units which were a specific length,
for the home workshop,
and didn't cop on that it was the length of the unit, being why the larger powered units seemed more slender to match.
Making more sense now.
I must have another go at reading Bill's website though.

Also some other interesting comments regarding the stuff left in the filter, he didn't demonstrate a good amount of material like what Jer Schmidt did with his cyclone, interesting to note of the seldom amount what gets left in your filter!

And duly noted @Inspector , very interesting comment regarding chips still swirling around the inlet

Thanks for your input folks.

Tom

I think he was mistaken saying the impeller was from Wynn. The filter looks like it is. I think he meant to say a Rikon impeller as it is the one most of the Harbor Freight/Oneida dust deputy type modifiers use in the US. The Horror Fright impeller is 10" and the Rikon is 12" and fits into the impeller housing. A 14" or 15" would never fit the housing and a 2hp motor wouldn't be enough to drive them either. Peruse enough YouTube videos and you will come across it. Like this one for example. Dust Collector Impeller Upgrade - Testing Air flow, Suction, Noise Levels and Current Draw - YouTube

Pete

It was in fact a Wen impeller. Specifically a replacement for wen 3043 collector. Ill have to look up the item number.

Thanks Pete
Good to see y'all are keeping me between the ditches!

I wouldn't have copped that either, thanks for the link to the video.
vlcsnap-2022-12-05-20h20m01s066.jpg

Screenshot-2022-12-5 Dust Collector Impeller Upgrade - Testing Air flow, Suction, Noise Levels a.jpg
Tis difficult to get an impression regarding stuff on the marketplace too,
as I've been looking for a 15" steel impeller system for some time, though never spotted anyone putting a tape across one.
*old ones which I can afford that is...

so good to know those are likely Rikon impellers, I must have a google on that too for interests sake, should some UK company source some of them, they might supply larger ones by the time it would take me to build the thing

Cheers
Tom

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

.

One thing I noticed in the 4th/last video was some chips swirling around the inside of the inlet long after the sawdust was tossed in, which to me showed it wasn't working very well.

Yes, Pete, I also saw those chips swirling around the inlet and almost escaping back out. That didn't inspire confidence.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Yes, Pete, I also saw those chips swirling around the inlet and almost escaping back out. That didn't inspire confidence.

I asked myself the same questiom when I first saw this happen. I didnt incorporate a ramp of any kind and I blindly guessed about the length of the central pipe in the cone.
But, like I said, I did very little research. The height of the cone was def a concern of mine too, and ive seen others mention that here. But i didnt have enough metal on hand to make it as tall as i wanted.

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

I think he was mistaken saying the impeller was from Wynn. The filter looks like it is. I think he meant to say a Rikon impeller as it is the one most of the Harbor Freight/Oneida dust deputy type modifiers use in the US. The Horror Fright impeller is 10" and the Rikon is 12" and fits into the impeller housing. A 14" or 15" would never fit the housing and a 2hp motor wouldn't be enough to drive them either. Peruse enough YouTube videos and you will come across it. Like this one for example. Dust Collector Impeller Upgrade - Testing Air flow, Suction, Noise Levels and Current Draw - YouTube

Pete

Finally had time after work to search my email for reciept. Here's the replacement impeller I used.

[3403-022] Turbo Fan for WEN 3403 — WEN Products

Originally Posted by Tom trees

"I expect he will get good chip collector out of his setup. What we know from Bill Pentz' research is that his design will not be efficient at fine dust separation."

This is where I get a bit confused regarding comments like this.
I'd be happy if anyone could put me straight on a few things.

Screenshot-2022-12-3 2 HP DIY Cyclone Dust Collection Part 4, final assembly and testing - YouTu.jpg

I'm not sure if you mean the fact that this 2hp motor is getting plumbed with many long runs...
Could statements like the highlighted ones be said for just two machines right beside the extractor?

That's a pleated Wynn filter which I presume is the correct spec,
It's only a single filter unlike Jer's, which I presume may have some impact on things, perhaps it might be too little surface area
and destroy the weave, if a larger motor was used, just a guess.


Been a long time since I've visited Bill Pentz's website, and seem to remember a bit more on the filtration side of things.
Surely the dudes got a whole lot more performance than a chip bag.
I guess I need be better informed about this, but I find myself glazing over Bill's website with all the technical detail.

From what little I gleaned from reading,
I'd hazard a guess around twice as good as a dusty bag, provided the filter stays clean.

I'd love to know what I'm missing in simple terms about this,
should I be waay of the mark

Cheers
Tom

It's a MERV15 rated wynn filter. Its infinitely better than the 30 micron bag on my 1hp delta collector. And def better than the 1 to 5 micron bag on the harbor freight collector I used to make this set-up.