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  1. #1
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    Default New Dust Extraction setup

    Finally getting round to investing in dust control.

    I have a generic 2hp dusty which I will locate outside the shed and convert to 6" inlet.

    However - I live on an acre and my neighbours aren't too close to the shed so I wanted to ditch the bag/filter and instead catch the sawdust in a drum/bin. I'm thinking of the drum after the impeller/motor unit, with a simple thein baffle or similar to keep the majority of the dust in the drum. Otherwise would an open drum work with the impeller outlet just angled into it or would this just throw dust everywhere?

    I figure a drum takes up a lot less space than the bag/filter and would be less restrictive, even with a baffle/cyclone? Would also mean I don't have to modify/open up the connection from impeller to bag.

    Here's my shed and proposed layout. Position A is preferred for the dusty as B is in the goat run and the sh*ts will think it's a new toy. There's a timber storage area not shown off the bottom next to the lathe.
    The lathe is not in use so I haven't included it. If I keep it, I'd extend the main branch down to it.



    shed.JPG


    20191007_080051.jpg

    20191007_080038.jpg


    The issues I have are:

    > Dropping the pipe down to the table saw. It would have to drop between the TS and the work bench/outfeed table. This is OK but if I need to cut sheets it would be in the way. My thought was to make the drop a flexi hose, which allows me to reroute/remove it and swap it over to the router table which just sits on top of the TS when in use and put away when not used. I do all my sanding on this work bench so maybe a 2nd flexi pipe dropped down with a bell mouth on the end?

    The TS has no dust ports (it's a home made thing) but it would be easy enough to put an opening in the steel guard/chute which currently spews all the dust out onto the floor.



    > My jointer/thicknesser combo has no dust ports.
    I temporarily hooked up the DC to catch the chips and it actually seems ok - maybe with 6" ducting and improved flow this will be the way to go. Happy to hear suggestions though. When using as a jointer, I've just been the trapping hose in the thicknesser opening.

    20191007_080011.jpg


    I was hoping to finish it up within a budget of $600. Am I dreaming?

    My understanding is 150mm DWV pipe and fittings are recommended.
    Is this correct and any suggestions on best place to buy this and blast gates in Melbourne?


    Thanks for any insight

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Henry View Post
    Finally getting round to investing in dust control.
    I have a generic 2hp dusty which I will locate outside the shed and convert to 6" inlet.
    However - I live on an acre and my neighbours aren't too close
    My understanding is 150mm DWV pipe and fittings are recommended.
    Is this correct and any suggestions on best place to buy this and blast gates in Melbourne?
    Hi. I hope you get some good advice, which I'll take advantage of, because I'm in pretty much the same situation (2hp dust, 1 acre, Melbourne). I'm waiting for a sparky to come on Wednesday, as my garage is currently only powered from a household power point (hardwired, not extension, but close enough); and the dust extractor pops a consumer multiboard, so is probably 10A on it's own (no current spec that I could see), so there's probably no headroom to run the saw etc at the same time without frying something.

  4. #3
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    Default

    Anything like a cyclone, standard chip collector, separator, or a Thein baffle is going to significantly slow down the overall flow and not collect as much dust to begin with

    Anything like a 200L drum or separator will in the first instance be more restrictive to flow than clean bags and not separate the dust very well. Given you have the space and the neighbours some distance away passing the dust through a largish external fall out chamber with a large cross sectional output port (eg 4 to 6x that of a 6" duct) will enable most of it to settle out before it exits the chamber. The chamber has to be largish (a 200L drum is too small) otherwise air flow through/out of the chamber will keep too much dust suspended in the air. You might not see it combining out of the exit at first but later on you and you neighbour will se it. For a 2HP I would shoot for an enclosure about the size of an outdoor dunny to start with..

    Some recommendations
    1) use a short a length of flex as you can as it reduces flow much more than smooth wall ducting. Use a 90º bend a length of PVC as a drop down and inly use a short lengths of flex to connect to the machines.

    2) To efficiently use 6" ducting you will have to modify the DC in a manner described in the sticky at the top of this forum. If you don't do that the air speeds will be too slow and you will get dust falling out in the ducting.
    This is Critical given the lengths of ducting you're hoping to use. Those lengths of ducting really require 3HP/13" impeller to work properly.

    3) RE: The TS has no dust ports (it's a home made thing) but it would be easy enough to put an opening in the steel guard/chute which currently spews all the dust out onto the floor.
    Good idea - If you get enough air flowing in as well as out it should not spill out onto the floor.

    4)6" Stormwater (SW) fittings and ducting are cheaper, as effective and cheaper than DWV. This only DWV fitting I would recommend over a SW fittings is the 90º bend as the DWV has a larger Radius of curvature and is less restrictive to flow.

    5) its very easy to make your own gates from pieces of ducting and MDF etc. Have a look at the blast gate gallery thread.

  5. #4
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  6. #5
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    Thanks Bob, I was hoping you'd come along...

    So the standard bag/filter arrangement is more efficient than dumping into a drum?
    Guess I'll have to modify the impeller to bag fitting and make the DC enclosure bigger to fit it all in then, I was just trying to take the easy way out.

    Re: flex hose to machines - I guess this should be 150mm too or is there cases where it can be dropped down to 100mm? I can't find a source for 150mm flexi.

    And is there a reducer to hook up to an orbital sander (35mm I think)? Or is a bell mouth sitting next to the work piece more effective?

    Re: the TS dust collection - I assume from the chute underneath the blade is OK - no need to try and collect from over the top of the blade/table?



    I did find the blast gate thread - seems simple enough. Thanks.




    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Anything like a cyclone, standard chip collector, separator, or a Thein baffle is going to significantly slow down the overall flow and not collect as much dust to begin with

    Anything like a 200L drum or separator will in the first instance be more restrictive to flow than clean bags and not separate the dust very well. Given you have the space and the neighbours some distance away passing the dust through a largish external fall out chamber with a large cross sectional output port (eg 4 to 6x that of a 6" duct) will enable most of it to settle out before it exits the chamber. The chamber has to be largish (a 200L drum is too small) otherwise air flow through/out of the chamber will keep too much dust suspended in the air. You might not see it combining out of the exit at first but later on you and you neighbour will se it. For a 2HP I would shoot for an enclosure about the size of an outdoor dunny to start with..

    Some recommendations
    1) use a short a length of flex as you can as it reduces flow much more than smooth wall ducting. Use a 90º bend a length of PVC as a drop down and inly use a short lengths of flex to connect to the machines.

    2) To efficiently use 6" ducting you will have to modify the DC in a manner described in the sticky at the top of this forum. If you don't do that the air speeds will be too slow and you will get dust falling out in the ducting.
    This is Critical given the lengths of ducting you're hoping to use. Those lengths of ducting really require 3HP/13" impeller to work properly.

    3) RE: The TS has no dust ports (it's a home made thing) but it would be easy enough to put an opening in the steel guard/chute which currently spews all the dust out onto the floor.
    Good idea - If you get enough air flowing in as well as out it should not spill out onto the floor.

    4)6" Stormwater (SW) fittings and ducting are cheaper, as effective and cheaper than DWV. This only DWV fitting I would recommend over a SW fittings is the 90º bend as the DWV has a larger Radius of curvature and is less restrictive to flow.

    5) its very easy to make your own gates from pieces of ducting and MDF etc. Have a look at the blast gate gallery thread.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Henry View Post
    Thanks Bob, I was hoping you'd come along...
    So the standard bag/filter arrangement is more efficient than dumping into a drum?
    Guess I'll have to modify the impeller to bag fitting and make the DC enclosure bigger to fit it all in then, I was just trying to take the easy way out.
    Dumping straight into a drum is more efficient BUT you will fog the area outside and downstream from your shed with wood dust. Also if there is no breeze your DC will suck some of that the fine stuff back into your shed,

    The standard filter/bag arrangement is more efficient only when the bags are clean or partially clogged but as the DC sawdust bag fills up and the filter clogs it will be less efficient.
    If you have a good memory and can remember to empty the sawdust collector bag on a regular basis (ie before they are about 2/3rd full) then this works OK but if not after a while the flow will drop significantly and you will end up with uncollected dust all over the inside of your shed

    If you just vent into a small (- eg ~200L or less) chamber too much sawdust will stay in suspension and blow out of the exit. What you need is a chamber that is big enough to slow the air flow down so the heavier le visible dust falls out of suspension. For a 2HP DC you need about 2000L is a good size but it does not have to be exactly this and bigger is better. some baffles inside the 2000L chamber will help - not too many or it will increase the resistANCE.

    Re: flex hose to machines - I guess this should be 150mm too or is there cases where it can be dropped down to 100mm?
    The shorter the better but sometimes you simply can't make it too short

    And is there a reducer to hook up to an orbital sander (35mm I think)? Or is a bell mouth sitting next to the work piece more effective?
    Both if you can manage it. For reducers to hoOK up the OrbS look in Bunnings for flexible rubber plumbing couplers/reducers that connect different sizes of ducting. I think the smallest they go down to is 40 mm but this can be pushed down to 35mm.
    I would use 50 mm corrugated hose and a 40-50mm rubber coupler.
    [EDIT] I just realised you are going to use a 2HP DC. so you can't really use both simultaneously.
    In that case a BHM works better if you are working on a smaller workpiece but anything LARGER than about 1m^2 a direct hook up is better

    Re: the TS dust collection - I assume from the chute underneath the blade is OK - no need to try and collect from over the top of the blade/table?
    You will still need to collect from the top of the blade because unless you have a veritable super sucker on the cabinet the blade drags fine dust from under the cabinet to above the cabinet.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Cheers.

    I think I'll use a bell mouth on a flexy hose for the router table and sanding area - they are in the same place so I can just clip it to either the router table or work bench as needed.

    Problem is I can't find 150mm flexy. Can I reduce to 100mm flexy? And if so what sort of adaptor do I use?

    This is where I get unstuck - I've got this far before but it seems so hard finding suppliers for the fittings.

  9. #8
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    If you want to go over 150mm SW pipe, you can go 160mm Flexi. like I do or use 150mm flex pipe and the fittings BobL does. I’m buying my Polyflex Light 160mm from Eximo/Speedlock now - not cheap at $56.95 per metre but super flexible. They do all sizes including 152mm.

    http://www.speedlock.com.au/pdfs/POLYFLEXLGHT.pdf
    Last edited by Lappa; 7th October 2019 at 05:41 PM. Reason: link added

  10. #9
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    Both Carbatech and Timbecon have cheap 150 mm flexy.
    I prefer the Timbecon stuff as it is LESS flexible.

    My testing has shown that super flexible flexy is less efficient than the stiffer stuff.
    The most flexible flexy (mine was from CleaVue) can have as much as twice the "restrictiveness" of the stiffest stuff (Timbecon)
    This makes sense if you think that ALL flexy is more restrictive that the stiffest or plain smooth walled cutting.

    Neither the stuff from Carbatech or Timbecon slips easily over nominal 150 mm diameter stormwater ducting.
    This is why I use a threaded coupler like this to connect flex to ducting then its always just a push fit to remove and replace onto regular ducting.
    It's more time consuming but cheaper way of doing it and has the added advantage of being easily able to be removed for example to use as a vac line tidy up around the place.
    flexyjunction.jpg
    Here is one of the 10o mm ones on my BS - it just push fits onto a BMH under the BS.
    IMG_1922.jpg

  11. #10
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    I also live on land an no near neighbours oh joy oh jubilation oh happy day my dusty is outside and just blows away in the wind. Only time Ive had second thoughts when I had been cutting Jarrah for 2 hours without the tablesaw gate open...when that was rectified a huge soft pink/red cloud wafted over the horizon never to be seen again.
    I would love to grow my own food, but I can not find bacon seeds

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Both Carbatech and Timbecon have cheap 150 mm flexy.
    I prefer the Timbecon stuff as it is LESS flexible.

    My testing has shown that super flexible flexy is less efficient than the stiffer stuff.
    The most flexible flexy (mine was from CleaVue) can have as much as twice the "restrictiveness" of the stiffest stuff (Timbecon)
    This makes sense if you think that ALL flexy is more restrictive that the stiffest or plain smooth walled cutting.

    Neither the stuff from Carbatech or Timbecon slips easily over nominal 150 mm diameter stormwater ducting.
    This is why I use a threaded coupler like this to connect flex to ducting then its always just a push fit to remove and replace onto regular ducting.
    It's more time consuming but cheaper way of doing it and has the added advantage of being easily able to be removed for example to use as a vac line tidy up around the place.
    So do you just cut a hole in the threaded cap to push the hose in?

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Henry View Post
    So do you just cut a hole in the threaded cap to push the hose in?
    Yep - I turn mine on a WW lathe to get a really close tight fit.

  14. #13
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    I'm not familiar with Australian pipe and hose standards but in the US the ID of S&D couplings is slightly smaller than the OD of typical hose. That makes it possible to cut a spiral groove in the coupling to match the hose wire.
    New Dust Extraction setup-threads-jpg

    The coupling then spins onto the hose and the slight taper of the coupling makes for a snug fit on pipe.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmorse View Post
    ... cut a spiral groove in the coupling to match the hose wire.
    I'm very impressed with your ability to cut a thread with a Dremel style tool!

    Kind regards,
    Lance

  16. #15
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    There are situations where you need very flexible hose. I had the stiffer Flexible hose on my SCMS system but it was a PITA as the hose needed was only 1 metre long and needed the end with the BMH to be moved to different locations.
    The super flexible hose, which is designed for industrial CNC applications (read “need for very flexible hose”) is great AND is only 1 metre in length so it’s not going to make any real difference to flow.
    In fact, I have a 2 metre length on the table saw and there would be less that 0.5% difference in flow from the “not so very flexible” hose that was there before and means I can move the table saw around to suit the timber I am cutting.

    In fact, if any one in Sydney wants some free 160mm “not so flexible hose”, which has been replaced by “very flexible hose”, PM me.

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