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  1. #1
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    Nov 2019
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    Default Dust Extractor help please!

    Good evening folks!

    I hope everyone is doing well.

    I am drawing closer to the expansion of my garage space and can finally fit a dust extractor in.


    To me a dust extractor is very important, and something i really dont want to skimp on as it's a safety item. Id rather delay getting a couple of black and green tools for a year in order to afford a better dust extractor.
    I am not super well versed with whats out there as my research has only been over the past 2 weeks.

    Basically I am also restricted by a ceiling height of just shy of 2m. This was a shame as i was hoping for a cyclone or something similar but you really do need decent ceiling height for them.

    I have single phase going out to the garage with several double 20Amp GPOs.

    The machinery that I plan on running off the dust extractor will be a 10" table saw, a 10" jointer planer, a 14" Bandsaw, a mid sized bench drill press and a chop saw (when i eventually get one).

    My shortlist:

    - Felder AF16 with the 1 micron canister.
    - AL-KO Mobil 100 with a 1 micron filter equivalent.
    - Budget $2-3k (perhaps slightly more if there is a good reason)

    I'm familiar with the Taiwanese beasts sold locally in blue, but i had a few unfortunate incidents with them when i was working in composites and prototyping.....they were meant to be industrial machines and we had several double baggers for a couple of big Multicam routers and they performed rather under-whelmingly.



    Cheers,
    Siggy

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    Sydney
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    Default

    step 1 is read the sticky post in this sub-forum. it has some well thought out concepts that help. Then, ensure you are considering 150mm ducting as your minimum, and opening up machine ports to that for effective extraction/maximising flow where the dust is created.
    Equally important factor - where is the DE exhaust? Can that be outside?

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    Given your budget I can see you are serious about this but there may not be a need to purchase an expensive DC nd instead put your efforts that no DC can provide 6" ducting and less choked mACHINERY.

    Can you locate the DC outside or inside in an Acoustically reduced enclosure and vent outside.
    If you can do this then you don't need fancy filtration and then it all becomes about maximising flow.

    Unfortunately the flow spec provided by most manufacturers are almost always for the impeller without filtration and or course no ducting or machinery, and performed using an incorrect procedure. In practice divide any claimed flows by about 2.
    As soon as ducting and choked machinery are used this defeats most dC flows including the more expensive ones..
    100 mm ducting is limited to ~425 CFM and 6" ducting is limited to about 1250 CFM.

    If filtration You would be better off using your $2-$3k towards getting a 3HP DC that either has a 6" inlet or can be modified to take 6" ducting and then using 6" ducting. Machine ports need to usually be opened up to accomodate this OR in the case of something like a BS more than one 4" port should be used on such machines.

    Maybe as poundy suggests - read the sticky and then come back with questions.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Perth WA Australia
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    828

    Default

    In that price range i wouldn't know why you wouldn't just go straight for a clearvue. i believe if height is an issue, i've heard people mounting these at an angle to fit it in.

    Also budget a good chunk of those funds for ducting.

  6. #5
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    Aug 2008
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Could you VFD one of these to single phase? New 2019 Rhino Panel Equipment 9030 Dust Extractors in Seaford, VIC

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Helensburgh
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    7,696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Siggykc View Post

    Basically I am also restricted by a ceiling height of just shy of 2m. This was a shame as i was hoping for a cyclone or something similar but you really do need decent ceiling height for them.

    I have single phase going out to the garage with several double 20Amp GPOs.



    Cheers,
    Siggy
    You could use one of the short cone Asian cyclones if you vent outside and do not want the added advantage of VFD control because as far as I know none of them have dual voltage motors that can run 3 phase at 240V. Major Woodworking have a fairly good range of these units but most of them are 415V and at the same time use at least a 15" impeller. There are some strategies to use a Clearvue in restricted heights and it is an advantage that the Clearvue has and it is the only one that offers VFD control which is a huge plus in control and also enables the cyclone to have unlimited starts per hour and a very low starting current draw. By limiting the height of the collection drum and increasing its floor area I reckon you could just about sneak a clearvue into 2 metres but check on the Clearvue website to confirm that, all the dimensions are there. Attached is a low ceiling height installation but I can't see how the transfer pipe is any lower than the motor would be in a stock installation. Ignore the filters in the photos as generally in Australia we can vent to atmosphere with no problems due to the excellent seperation the Clearvue offers. At least one person has remote mounted the motor and used a belt drive to the impeller but I don't have any details of that. It would also be possible to run the pipe between the cyclone and the drum at a steep angle into the drum but I have never seen that done and is just an idea that occurs to me as possible.

    Low Ceiling Height- split system.JPGLow Ceiling 3.jpgLow Ceiling 2.jpg

    Is it out of the question to instal the cyclone outside the workshop?
    CHRIS

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    You could use one of the short cone Asian cyclones if you vent outside and do not want the added advantage of VFD control because as far as I know none of them have dual voltage motors that can run 3 phase at 240V.
    If the motors are hard wired as 3P "Star" (Y) wired they can easily be converted internally by a motor rewinder.

    However, most 3P 415V DC I have seen used on any DCs use a "Delta" configured motor which means these cannot be converted internally to sun on 240V 3P even by a motor rewinder. Swapping the existing motor to a dual voltage motor is about the only way to deal with these. Unfortunately this then comes with additional baggage.
    eg https://www.woodworkforums.com/profi...hments&page=51

    Back to the OPs shed power connections.
    Do the 20A GPOs each have their own breakers (that's how 20A GPOs are supposed to be wired)?

    Given the OPs list of equipment (10" table saw, a 10" jointer planer, a 14" Bandsaw, a mid sized bench drill press and a chop saw when he eventually gets one) I'm not convinced he needs a large/expensive DC.

    In my 42m^2 shed, for about 8 years I used a $1000 3HP SP, Taiwanese blue, DC with a 13" Impeller. I have a 12" TS, 10" jointer/planar, 19" bandsaw, 150 x 1000 mm belt sander, DP etc, and tested my shed air extensively with particle counters while using this machinery and had no problems keeping the dust levels at near background levels. I also run most of my power tools attached by 2" hose to the DC.

    Most folks rely on the DC to do the work but there are 2 other equally important factors and they are 1) using 6" ducting and 2) opening up machinery to utilise the 6" ducting.

    Workshop sizes also matters as this determines ducting lengths, the OP mentions "garage" so it sounds like it's not that big. My longest duct run is 11m to the underside of the TS but it still works OK and even better since I replaced the motor with a 4HP 3P plus VFD.

    The main problems are then remembering to turn the DC on and have all the necessary gates open and close which is where things like auto blast gates come into their own

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
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    Somerville
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    50
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    Default

    "finally fit a dust extractor in"

    As mentioned above - have you considered putting the DE outside, which would help with the headroom, the noise, dust leakage, etc? Would "just" need to build some water/noise proofing for it.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    If the motors are hard wired as 3P "Star" (Y) wired they can easily be converted internally by a motor rewinder.

    However, most 3P 415V DC I have seen used on any DCs use a "Delta" configured motor which means these cannot be converted internally to sun on 240V 3P even by a motor rewinder. Swapping the existing motor to a dual voltage motor is about the only way to deal with these. Unfortunately this then comes with additional baggage.
    eg https://www.woodworkforums.com/profi...hments&page=51

    Back to the OPs shed power connections.
    Do the 20A GPOs each have their own breakers (that's how 20A GPOs are supposed to be wired)?

    Given the OPs list of equipment (10" table saw, a 10" jointer planer, a 14" Bandsaw, a mid sized bench drill press and a chop saw when he eventually gets one) I'm not convinced he needs a large/expensive DC.

    In my 42m^2 shed, for about 8 years I used a $1000 3HP SP, Taiwanese blue, DC with a 13" Impeller. I have a 12" TS, 10" jointer/planar, 19" bandsaw, 150 x 1000 mm belt sander, DP etc, and tested my shed air extensively with particle counters while using this machinery and had no problems keeping the dust levels at near background levels. I also run most of my power tools attached by 2" hose to the DC.

    Most folks rely on the DC to do the work but there are 2 other equally important factors and they are 1) using 6" ducting and 2) opening up machinery to utilise the 6" ducting.

    Workshop sizes also matters as this determines ducting lengths, the OP mentions "garage" so it sounds like it's not that big. My longest duct run is 11m to the underside of the TS but it still works OK and even better since I replaced the motor with a 4HP 3P plus VFD.

    The main problems are then remembering to turn the DC on and have all the necessary gates open and close which is where things like auto blast gates come into their own
    So the options are..

    Buy a cyclone and modify or change the motor unlees a Clearvue is used

    Buy a Generic dust extractor and modify it

    The machines connected to the DE need modifying whichever one is used

    Both will cost and result in no warranty for any ongoing problems.

    A local woodworking club bought a new Carbatec short cone cyclone from me many years ago, put a three phase motor on it and it is still working well to this day I believe. The price I sold it for made that an attractive way to do things but to buy a brand new machine and then modify it adds a substantial amount to the all up cost of the machine. The level the AUD has dropped to has pushed the price of any decent DE into the stratosphere where years ago it was a viable thing to buy and modify DE's. Sure you can buy a low end machine but buy a DE with a 15" impeller and it is an expensive purchase and modifications cost money on top of that but it will require less mods as a general rule.

    In the end it is a decision for the individual, buy and modify or buy and use. A lot has to be considered and most people want to buy and use and do not have the skills or, patience or inclination to modify a new dust extractor. Apart from anything else the OP's ideal budget in a way lessens the options he has and that is something that most of us come up against in the end. Most people I have spoken to and sold DE's to want to buy and use it as they find the whole thing very confusing to start with and they just want to install and switch on.

    The one thing I always advise is to use a VFD if at all possible because it makes the control so much better, way better than an off on switch.
    CHRIS

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
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    Bris
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    840

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siggykc View Post
    Good evening folks!

    I hope everyone is doing well.

    I am drawing closer to the expansion of my garage space and can finally fit a dust extractor in.


    To me a dust extractor is very important, and something i really dont want to skimp on as it's a safety item. Id rather delay getting a couple of black and green tools for a year in order to afford a better dust extractor.
    I am not super well versed with whats out there as my research has only been over the past 2 weeks.

    Basically I am also restricted by a ceiling height of just shy of 2m. This was a shame as i was hoping for a cyclone or something similar but you really do need decent ceiling height for them.

    I have single phase going out to the garage with several double 20Amp GPOs.

    The machinery that I plan on running off the dust extractor will be a 10" table saw, a 10" jointer planer, a 14" Bandsaw, a mid sized bench drill press and a chop saw (when i eventually get one).

    My shortlist:

    - Felder AF16 with the 1 micron canister.
    - AL-KO Mobil 100 with a 1 micron filter equivalent.
    - Budget $2-3k (perhaps slightly more if there is a good reason)

    I'm familiar with the Taiwanese beasts sold locally in blue, but i had a few unfortunate incidents with them when i was working in composites and prototyping.....they were meant to be industrial machines and we had several double baggers for a couple of big Multicam routers and they performed rather under-whelmingly.



    Cheers,
    Siggy

    Have you considered the Laguna C Flux? It's under 3k, has a 15.5" impeller, and according to the spec sheet it's 2025mm high. I reckon if you didn't install the casters (or replaced it with smaller diameter ones), it should reduce it's height to below 2m. Obviously this greatly reduces its mobility.

  12. #11
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    Jun 2009
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    Elizabeth Bay / Oberon NSW
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonzeyd View Post
    Also budget a good chunk of those funds for ducting.
    Amen to that!

    mick

  13. #12
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    Apr 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahoyKutter View Post
    Have you considered the Laguna C Flux? It's under 3k, has a 15.5" impeller, and according to the spec sheet it's 2025mm high. I reckon if you didn't install the casters (or replaced it with smaller diameter ones), it should reduce it's height to below 2m. Obviously this greatly reduces its mobility.
    first i've heard of that model. does seem OK for the height challenged, and at least they're willing to give you a more realistic CFM and the max CFM. Can always get the 3 phase model and slap VFD on it and wind it up a few more HZ, watching a youtube video even one guy commented that if you have the height for a full size cyclone you're better off getting one.

    hard call seeing as you can get a clearvue c1800 for around $3750 (no delivery), but you still need to come up with your own bin etc. But being aussie stock you might be able to do some dealing on the price of the c flux.

  14. #13
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by havabeer69 View Post
    first i've heard of that model. does seem OK for the height challenged, and at least they're willing to give you a more realistic CFM and the max CFM. Can always get the 3 phase model and slap VFD on it and wind it up a few more HZ
    Not necessarily, given the OP only has SP then using a 240V SP VFD requires the motor to be a 415V 3Phase STAR connected motor so it can be converted to 240V delta..
    If the motor is already configured as 415V Delta then it will not develop enough power on a 240V VFD.
    There are a few 240V SP to 415V 3P VFDs out there but they cost about $500.

  15. #14
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    Nov 2016
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    Bris
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    840

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    Quote Originally Posted by havabeer69 View Post
    first i've heard of that model. does seem OK for the height challenged, and at least they're willing to give you a more realistic CFM and the max CFM. Can always get the 3 phase model and slap VFD on it and wind it up a few more HZ

    hard call seeing as you can get a clearvue c1800 for around $3750 (no delivery), but you still need to come up with your own bin etc. But being aussie stock you might be able to do some dealing on the price of the c flux.

    I explored the VFD option and according to GregMach, the Laguna's 3 phase motor isn't capable of running at 60Hz. The Laguna cyclones certainly don't provide the same performance as the full-size cyclones (Clearvue/oneida) but it's an option for those unable/unwilling to locate their DE (or at least vent it to the outside) or require a mobile solution. I bought the P Flux which comes with a Hepa filter and sound baffling. I considered the Clearvue but ruled it out because I'm not able to vent it outside meaning that I would need to factor in the price of filters. All up the Clearvue would probably have cost me another 3K.

  16. #15
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    Aug 2007
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    The Laguna's here all run on 60Hz like all our tools. To the best of my knowledge they are the same motors with different data plates. The wires, switches and plugs might be different to suit your rules but the motor remains the same. I'll sit corrected if that isn't the case. If you lay a clear view over you can fit it into a 5" high space plus the hight of the collection barrel you pick.

    Pete

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