Thread: Enclosed workshed with an extractor: external vent with no filter bag?

Upside down is a nice idea, doubt the wife'd let me :P

I'll post some pictures this evening (just taken a couple now) and it'll demonstrate the issues I'm facing. Maybe someone can come up with a more creative idea than I.

Thanks

Anthony

Just tell her it is bolted to the house to keep people from stealing it.

Pete

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

You can take the DC-7 and mount it upside down by removing the castors and lag/bolt/screwing it to the bottom of the deck. Then take the collector rings off, turn them upright and bolt them back on. That puts the impeller just under the deck with the filter bags and the plastic bags at the bottom. You can then shorten the plastic bags as needed if they still touch the ground. You might want to put some rubber between the deck to base and some rubber washers under the fastener heads of the DC to reduce sound transmission to the deck and house. It has the advantage of keeping the motor off the ground. Reduce the number of elbows and pipe that would be needed to take the pipe to the as supplied configuration. You can tarp or buckshee some walls around it to keep it dry or quiet it down some. Make the neighbours happy.

Pete

I had the same problem when I suspended my DC from the inside walls of the enclosure but found 6mm thick rubber washers didn't make any difference and neither did 12mm thick rubber pads (ie no bolts) on which the DC impeller/motor sat. I discussed this with an acoustician from work and he said any because of the weight involved any hard/flat connection between the DC and the deck will still transmit vibe/sound. Some improvement would be expected using a "tuned" suspension system, These are rubber blocks with through holes at specific points in the blocks.
Something like this.
Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 6.37.25 am.png


Sometimes a suspension system works better.

Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 6.29.16 am.png
It would require some experimentation.

I tried a one of these but a lower noise output solution was to go back to supporting the DC direct from the ground.

Originally Posted by TheCrazedLog

en-biggerator for a 4" to a 6"

That's great. I have not heard that description before.

Lance

Originally Posted by BobL

I had the same problem when I suspended my DC from the inside walls of the enclosure but found 6mm thick rubber washers didn't make any difference and neither did 12mm thick rubber pads (ie no bolts) on which the DC impeller/motor sat. I discussed this with an acoustician from work and he said any because of the weight involved any hard/flat connection between the DC and the deck will still transmit vibe/sound. Some improvement would be expected using a "tuned" suspension system, These are rubber blocks with through holes at specific points in the blocks.
Something like this.
Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 6.37.25 am.png


Sometimes a suspension system works better.

Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 6.29.16 am.png
It would require some experimentation.

I tried a one of these but a lower noise output solution was to go back to supporting the DC direct from the ground.

Well plan B would be to make a wood or metal frame sitting on the ground and bolt up to it. Still have the benefit of the inlet being high and able to shorten the plastic bag. Wrapping with a heavy tarp could keep the weather off. Since he will likely get the DC in boxes assembling it upside down is the same as right side up.

OK, here we go. These first three pictures are shot standing in the same location and traversing left to right. The fourth picture is standing roughly in the middle of shot #2 and looking back at where I shot the first three.

IMG_20190528_070410-0.jpg IMG_20190528_070410-1.jpg IMG_20190528_070410-2.jpg IMG_20190528_070410-3.jpg

Here are some pictures from the outside:
IMG_20190528_070410-7.jpg IMG_20190528_070410-8.jpg IMG_20190528_070410-9.jpg IMG_20190528_070410.jpg
Picture 5 is looking down the stairs. Picture 6 is shot from the left middle of picture one. Picture 7 is under the deck, roughly next to picture 5. Picture 8 is looking at the entry to the work area, that door being the one shown in the first four photos.

As you can see, I'm a bit limited. General plan so far is:
- In picture 1, the storage rack at right angles to the other two will be removed. Its the tan one with no top shelf.
- In picture 1, the right most storage rack (dark grey) not yet removed will be moved somewhere. Possibly to the right of the workbench seen in picture 4.
- The Harvey table saw I want to get will go in the left of picture 2, kinda under where the blue paint tray is hanging. It will have an outfeed table made for it going up the dirt (but level of course)
- To the right of it I want to put the existing mitre saw, basically where it is now.
- The workbench will stay roughly in the same location. It might be improved or changed at some point.

Now, where does the DC go?
- Option 1: I was thinking in place of the drawers seen in picture 3, uphill of the dryer in picture 4. Downside: Not a lot of room to walk around, especially when I have to build the enclosure.
- Option 2: Over in the gap to the right of the bench, seen in pictures 1 and 4. Downside: bit of a longer run, have to build a room for it.
- Option 3: To the right of the planned table saw location, replacing the shelf that is moving. This is looking more and more likely. Really close to the tools, need to build a room for it.
- Option 4: Under the deck. Downside: not a lot of height (nor is there anywhere!), right next to the aircon unit which probably won't like the dust, need to knock a hole in the wall for the pipes (any scenario involves that really) and its exposed to the weather. Oh and its cramped.

As you can see, a good space outside is a real issue.

Anyone got any other ideas? Can I rotate one of these things sideways? Do I even need a 3HP unit? COuld I get a 2HP unit and get away with a slightly smaller space?

I reckon this is the spot. and run ducting over the top as shown. I f you get a 3HP unit and use 6" PVC the extra 1.5m won't make any difference.
The AC won't care a dot about the fine dust that might escape from time to time - in fact the AC fan will blow this fine dust away and keep the area clean.
DClocation.jpg

I know you are not going to like me saying the fiollowing but this will actually turn out to be the least of your worries when considering the whole DC system,
If you want it to work right, Installing the right size and type of ducting, knocking a hole in the wall , making blast gates, surgically altering machine ports etc is going to take you far longer than what I suggest - iDC system installation ts a long slow process that simply doesn't happen overnight so my suggestion is not going to add a lot more work.

I would make a wedge shaped wooden platform for the DC to sit on and build an neutral coloured enclosure around it on 3 sides so you can't see the unit itself when approaching or walking up and down the stairs. Visually it will look ragged after a while as dust leaks etc will start to eventually show up on it and you don't want any complaints about looks.

Ive a 2HP Industrial from Timbecon with a pleated filter.

it is very good!

I know two people with the 3HP model with 2 PF's - Ilya and LovesToRide

Those machines are UNBELIEVABLE.

Both in their suction AND noise generation!

That is kind of what I was thinking of doing, though I was going to get the pipe to go at ground level. However the space under there isn't great: at the depth of the unit I'd have 1550 mm to play with. Let's say the wheels add 30mm and the unit is 1950 overall, that's 370mm if I've done my maths right I'd need to find, assuming I buy this unit: https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor and take off the wheels.

There's a bit of space in between the cross beams but not enough for the bag to not rub.

It's not a lot

Cartridge filters rather than bags might fit in the space under the deck. You'll have to check the specs. More money though.

Pete

I'm about to rush out to an appointment but wanted to get some thoughts down quickly:
- I've got to do more research on the subject but I wonder whether the aforementioned 3HP unit + a Super Dusty Deputy cyclone + no filter bags + external venting via a hood might work? Cyclone would be indoors along with the DC, so I'd have to have a nice seal. This could be an issue?
- There's loss with the cyclone I understand, but surely 3HP on a single outlet (if I'm good and keep my gates closed) is going to handle it?
- I was considering something like this: https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor connected directly to each tool as needed. As I understand it though these are pretty rubbish and even with a cyclone they'd still be so. Is this correct?
- I had a very quick look but wasn't able to see: anyone know off the top of their head whether the cheaper 3HP unit (https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor) is 15amp? Its 3HP which puts it in 15amp territory but I can't find anything yet which positively says yea or nay.

Thanks muchly to those who've replied already and apologies for the constant questions: I rather feel I'm not in an easy situation to solve hence said questions. And given that its health we're talking about....

Originally Posted by TheCrazedLog

I'm about to rush out to an appointment but wanted to get some thoughts down quickly:
- I've got to do more research on the subject but I wonder whether the aforementioned 3HP unit + a Super Dusty Deputy cyclone + no filter bags + external venting via a hood might work? Cyclone would be indoors along with the DC, so I'd have to have a nice seal. This could be an issue?
- There's loss with the cyclone I understand, but surely 3HP on a single outlet (if I'm good and keep my gates closed) is going to handle it?

Oh no not this one, AGAIN.
Such a setup as you propose can lose up to 45% of the possible flow.
Putting it all outside doesn't help much because the important job of a DC is to collect the maximum amount of dust and for that you need lots of air flow - if you don't collect it then it doesn't matter how or even if it's filtered
The folks that don't see fine dust past their cyclones on small DCs is because it's very fine ie invisible, but also because that sort of a set up simply doesn't collect as much fine dust to begin with.

This is why ClearVue cyclones use a 15"/16" impellers and a 4-5HP motors and a specially designed/matched cyclone that makes their system able to move a lot of air and very efficiently filter the air, anything less won't collect the fine dust to begin with. The matching of the motor-impeller-cyclone is critical to obtain the flow and efficiency - it is not possible to simply grab any old thing off a shelf and hope it will work.

If you go that route you should then add additional ventilation to the shed eg target 20 room changes per hour.
Its not ideal but you will need something to extract the fine dust the DC is not collecting.

Go on mention cyclones again. Bob is going to pay me $10 everytime they raise their heads on this forum. Iam going to be rich in no time

seriously it sounds like BobL goes on and on, BUT he has done possibly more research than all of us here into dust movement, etc. He knows what he is talking about.

Recently I moved all my gear into a large shed and was busting to get set up, getting bell mouths, making blast gates , hunting around for cheaper 150mm pipe etc etc and after 'consultation' I am now glad that Ive taken my time and still setting up.

Originally Posted by BobL

Oh no not this one, AGAIN.
Such a setup as you propose can lose up to 45% of the possible flow.
Putting it all outside doesn't help much because the important job of a DC is to collect the maximum amount of dust and for that you need lots of air flow - if you don't collect it then it doesn't matter how or even if it's filtered
The folks that don't see fine dust past their cyclones on small DCs is because it's very fine ie invisible, but also because that sort of a set up simply doesn't collect as much fine dust to begin with.

This is why ClearVue cyclones use a 15"/16" impellers and a 4-5HP motors and a specially designed/matched cyclone that makes their system able to move a lot of air and very efficiently filter the air, anything less won't collect the fine dust to begin with. The matching of the motor-impeller-cyclone is critical to obtain the flow and efficiency - it is not possible to simply grab any old thing off a shelf and hope it will work.

If you go that route you should then add additional ventilation to the shed eg target 20 room changes per hour.
Its not ideal but you will need something to extract the fine dust the DC is not collecting.

And this is exactly why I'm asking lots of questions, because other people see the flaws of things I haven't

Ok so, I think the most plausible solution that has been come up with is to have the DC inside the work area with filter bags, in its own little cupboard that is more or less sealed to the rest of the work area and a vent going outside. It'll be right next to the devices and will have a pretty short run to said devices. I'll roll the bags so they're a little shorter or get a couple of cartridges.

I see two choices: https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor and https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...dust-extractor. Given my needs I think both are adequate and here are my thoughts of the more expensive one:

- Remote activation. Great for behind a wall. Not sure how I'd turn it on and off if I didn't have this?
- 1/3 more oompage CFM wise (technical term that)
- It is however much taller and thus would require more shrinking.
- I do note that it comes with a cyclone which, as above, would be useless. So there's some wasted money there.

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