Thread: Which one of the best of two evils?

Great tip!
I have once been burned by the mob at Reeves. In my experience when they sense you're not a tradie they double the price! The same is valid for Middy's (Middendorp electrical and data).
I promised myself never to buy from them again but will check them out online and pretend to be a tradie.
I never dealt with Tradelink before but will check them out.
At Bunnings the 150mm DWV Holman pipes, length of 6m, sell for $99.00 a piece. Yes indeed, a very expensive exercise. I need at least 5 lengths and many Y-pieces and elebows.
Thank you very much for passing on this tip.
Cheers,

Luke

Yes, two big rollerdoors of 4m by 4m! )
I will only use one machine at a time though.
We are completely off-grid and have only single phase. Hence my limit for 3hp DC.
Still my brewery consumes about 7500W continuosly for 3 hours when I'm brewing and I have a couple of 32A outlets.
So, I'm not really stressing the system with a 3hp DC and my 3hp thicknesser running at the same time.

Originally Posted by LRAT

Yes, two big rollerdoors of 4m by 4m! )
I will only use one machine at a time though.
We are completely off-grid and have only single phase. Hence my limit for 3hp DC.

Im running a 4HP DC from a single phase supply.
The trick is to use a 3Phase motor and a VFD.
The VFD is used to generate what is called a slow start so (depending how quickly you program it to start up) the start up current doesn't go over 12A.
When its full running is draws about the same current as when the DC has a single phase supply (9A) so it doesn't really even need a 15A supply as a 10A circuit with a 16A breaker will easily handle the start up current.

All this is because its the impeller and ducting that determines the load on the motor which determines the max current drawn.

The real benefit is the VFD enables the motor to spin faster which means increased air flow for that I do need a 15A connection because the current does increase above 10A.

Hi BobL,
That sounds like a very good system. Yes, it's the start-up current that is the problem, especially with fans and thicknessers as they take some time to get up to speed.
OK, you opened up a new venue for me )
So, you said you got a 4hp DC; Could you please tell me what it is, where you got it from and how much it was?
The same for the VFD please.
We've got a 15.5 kW PV-system with battery storage, so the energy requirement is not a problem but peak power is.
On a sunny day we can generate 60 kWh per day. So, yes, a VFD sounds good, especially if the unit can run at higher RPM (I presume you mean at 60 Hz instead of the normal 50 Hz).
I am happy I haven't ordered anything yet as this channels proves to contain a wealth of information and I'm keen to learn defore I spend my hard earned cash.
Thank you so much for these suggestions!

Originally Posted by LRAT

It seems with dust extractors in Australia to be very hard to pick someting midrange. It is either cheap inferior crap or over the top units like Clearvue or Laguna.
Luke
Melbourne

I am genuinely interested in why you regard those units as over the top. I ask the question to try and understand how people who are shopping for dust extraction equipment view the value of what is available as I have been involved in retailing dust extraction equipment for many years. A bit of market research on my part and trying to understand how people approach the issue.

Hi Chris Parks,
Let me expalin my philosophy so that I can assit with your research:
With the cheaper units the woodchips do dissapear but the fine ( and invisible) dust floats around in the workshop. I had a Carbatec CT-002V unit before and the amount of dust floating in the workshop was unacceptable.
So, when you spend 500 to 600 dollars all seems well initially but you're still inhaling the fine dust, especially when one neglects the compulsory daily maintenance.
The more expesive units, like Laguna or Clearvue, start at around $3,000 ($3,700 with the extra insulation and HEPA filters)
This will also require to invest in 150mm pipe, Y-fittings, elbows, blast gates, upgrade of electrical circuit or a VFD, bags, frequent replacment of (expensive) filters, etc.
By the time this is all installed one will have spent between $5000 to $6000. For the Clearvue it will be close to $7000 to $8000!
I use my wood workshop now and then to make some small projects or cabinets.
It's very hard to convince the missus that I have to spend such an amount of money just to remove some chips/dust.
I value my health now more as I'm getting older. That's why I want to collect the chips in a box outside the shed and blow off the fine dust into the atmosphere (We live on a 20 acre property and the nearest neighbour is 3km away). I want to collect the shavings so that they can be used in the chook house or a composting toilet)
So, I'm happy to go for something basic: A good quality motor with fan of enough capacity, 150mm DWV piping with 10 blastgates, elbows, Y-fitings, a box made from formply to catch the chips and a remote control.
No need for me to buy filters, bags, etc.
Another advantage is that the fan will be mounted outside and this will reduce the noise as well.
My budget all in would be around $1500 to $2000 all in. I challenge you to find something off the shelve that fits all criteria for that price in Australia.
I am sure I am not the only one dealing with this problem. By bringing it out in the open we can all benefit from each other's feedback and experiences.
Feel free to comment on this. I might be incorrect in some aspects and I'm happy to stand corrected by experts in the field.
I hope this will help.
Cheers,

Luke

Originally Posted by LRAT

Hi BobL,
That sounds like a very good system. Yes, it's the start-up current that is the problem, especially with fans and thicknessers as they take some time to get up to speed.
OK, you opened up a new venue for me )
So, you said you got a 4hp DC; Could you please tell me what it is, where you got it from and how much it was?
The same for the VFD please.
We've got a 15.5 kW PV-system with battery storage, so the energy requirement is not a problem but peak power is.
On a sunny day we can generate 60 kWh per day. So, yes, a VFD sounds good, especially if the unit can run at higher RPM (I presume you mean at 60 Hz instead of the normal 50 Hz).
I am happy I haven't ordered anything yet as this channels proves to contain a wealth of information and I'm keen to learn defore I spend my hard earned cash.
Thank you so much for these suggestions!

I purchased my DC in 2011 as a Carbatech 3HP DC with a 13" impeller and below is what it looked like when I first got it.
At the time it had an RRP of $1300 but I got it on sale for $1000
DC.JPG
Since then I have located it outside in a noise reducing enclosure
I turfed the 4 x 100 mm inlet and replaced that with a 6" bell mouth hood.
In replaced the 3HP single phase motor with a 4HP 3P motor and a VFD.
details here; Upgrading a 3HP Single Phase DC with 4HP 3P motor and VFD

Unfortunately I have not seen this type of DC for some time.

In terms of your shed a 3HP should work provided ducting runs are kept short.
The biggest dust makers should be as close as possible to the DC while the smaller machines like DP or a small sander can be a bit further away.
My shed is about 42m^2 (about 1/8th of yours) and all of my dust making gear is contained in less than 30m^2
If you wanted to utilise the full area of the shed you would need about a 7.5HP system.

As for ducting etc try Pipe Online - Retic Fittings , Plumbing Fittings, Reticulation Supplies supplied Australia wide
Some members have found purchasing at least the fittings from them to be considerably cheaper even including the cost of shipping

Luke, thanks for your response and explanation. For a 150mm ducted system the cost does not vary much except for what dust extractor drives it and everyone has to balance what they spend against the benefit they receive from that spend.

Originally Posted by BobL

Some members have found purchasing at least the fittings from them to be considerably cheaper even including the cost of shipping

The cost of shipping was prohibitive to Tas, but found that by creating a list of all my parts and emailing it to several plumbing supplies for a quote, I ended up with trade(ish) pricing almost on par with the above supplier.

Tradelink near me is not much cheaper than Reece. I like them wearing masks now - not for COVID but it suits the prices - robbery.

I have now found a smaller trade shop that’s not affiliated with these major chains. Their prices are only a tiny bit dearer than pipesonline and they are the cheapest I’ve found but alas they are in WA.

Ring around. It’s amazing the suppliers around your area with reasonable prices.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I am genuinely interested in why you regard those units as over the top. I ask the question to try and understand how people who are shopping for dust extraction equipment view the value of what is available as I have been involved in retailing dust extraction equipment for many years. A bit of market research on my part and trying to understand how people approach the issue.

For me it’s not that a Clear Vue is over the top spec wise, but there is a huge gap (in price and I suspect performance) between the standard 3hp ones and the Clear Vue. Like LRAT I haven’t been able to find anything in the middle. So I’m stuck with my 3hp with a 12 inch impeller until I can justify having a Clear Vue shipped halfway across the world. In Aus, you’ve got a local supplier, but IIRC it’s about four or five times the price of the cheapies.

I’d probably be happy with a 3hp unit if I could get a bigger impeller to pull more air. I’m considering putting a VFD motor on the 12 inch impeller to crank it to 60hz, but I suspect that I’d be wasting money doing that on a consumer spec machine.

So as far as I can tell, there’s no middle of the road offering between a 3hp system and the entry level professional systems like the Clear Vue.

Originally Posted by Colin62

So as far as I can tell, there’s no middle of the road offering between a 3hp system and the entry level professional systems like the Clear Vue.

That just about sums it up world wide or at least the English speaking world. The CV range was never meant and is not marketed to the profession as such, it was always aimed at the hobbyist in the US who mostly recirculated the air due to the cold climate in winter so it was developed with a view to trap as much as possible before the return air reached the filters. Very few CV's are sold in Oz using filters to my knowledge and all the plans to build one are available on Bill Pentz's website. I am sure Clearvue would be interested in an agent in South Africa if you were inclined. I bought one and during the buying process they talked me into being the distributor here which I did on a casual basis for some years before retiring. I made very little money out of it because I kept the retail price very low, in fact the first one I bought cost way way more than I retailed them for.

I will echo the others in this thread.

I also feel there is a bit of a lacking of proper options in the higher end hobbist market. There is not one machine that comes with a 6" intake, despite most of them selling 6" ducting fitting and hoses.

The clearvue and now the laguna c flux will come with a 6" and 8" intakes, but it is a hard sell to tell a home work shop person to spend $3 - $5k) on the dust extraction, when they see a shop vac with a cyclone is clearing the chips "just as well"

I really think until places like carbatec, machinery house, timbecon take dust extraction seriously and get the chinese knock offs to start making a 3 - 4hp machine, with a soft start and a 13+ inch impellor and 6" intake for less then $2000 dust extraction will just flounder along as it has.

With only places like this actually getting the correct message across there really needs to be a big youtube push as well that we all need to get dust extraction affordable and correct.


I should say ive just bought a laguna cflux for $2950 (plus probably $500 more on fittings, hose, enclosing) I sincerely hope to get at least 10 years out of it. Thats after buying a shop vac, then a single bag 1hp, then a 3hp dc7 style and now the laguna.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

That just about sums it up world wide or at least the English speaking world. The CV range was never meant and is not marketed to the profession as such, it was always aimed at the hobbyist in the US who mostly recirculated the air due to the cold climate in winter so it was developed with a view to trap as much as possible before the return air reached the filters. Very few CV's are sold in Oz using filters to my knowledge and all the plans to build one are available on Bill Pentz's website.

Point taken that Clear Vue was intended as a hobbyist machine. I suppose it falls into what photography buffs call the prosumer class - meant for consumers who take their hobby very seriously.

Although the cyclone is what most people notice first about a Clear Vue, I think the impeller is more important. It moves enough air to shift most systems from being marginal or below par to pumping enough air to be useful. As you say, the plans for the cyclone are available free of charge.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I am sure Clearvue would be interested in an agent in South Africa if you were inclined. I bought one and during the buying process they talked me into being the distributor here which I did on a casual basis for some years before retiring. I made very little money out of it because I kept the retail price very low, in fact the first one I bought cost way way more than I retailed them for.

I’m avoiding doing any turning for money because I don’t want to tilt the balance away from this being a hobby where I go to relax and enjoy myself. Taking on an agency like that would affect that balance, and that’s assuming that I had the money to invest. Perhaps I should chat to the guy who is importing Vicmarc lathes - he seems to be finding a market for them, and might see that as a useful addition to his range of products.