Thread: Felder AF22

Originally Posted by Anodyne

Hi, I'm seeking opinions about the Felder AF22,

I have a colleague with the Felder DC equipment and he detests and despises it.
His kit is a two bag job and his complaint is that he can never get the system to fill the second bag. I've not heard any other complaint about it from him, but that one issue seems to drive him to apoplexy.

On the other hand check out Bill Pentz' web cite he sells cyclone kits that are so good that your final stage filter won't have any work to do.

Good Morning Anodyne

I gooogled "Felder AF22" and got over a dozen first hand reports from owners - quite interesting.

Like Cliff, I read Bill Pentz's stuff, and a cyclone just before the impeller will certainly reduce the work load of the filters greatly, and remove potential impeller damaging missiles.

Keep us posted

Graeme

Thanks Graeme for taking time to reply. Unfortunately I've not had as much luck in identifying many Felder AF22 owners, particularly in Australia where I'd hoped a few people would have assessed their machines against the locally available imports. I have read a large amount of BP's pages and they are taking some time to digest. I've joined the FOG and am slowly working through this. I searched google using felder af22 and after 20 google pages of results (over 200 sites) was relatively disappointed, having found only one other site I hadn't already seen. I re-read your post and decided to enclose the search term with exclamation marks and this time had only 12 google pages of results but no new finds. When the posts are examined there are many repeats of a quote in different forums and some authors contributing to multiple forums and multiple posts to a single forum. Overall the comments are really quite brief and often stated suction was excellent and that it was excellent value. Not a lot about a machine that is available world wide (or so I presume, given the number of foreign pages needing translation. I must confess I haven't translated all these pages as most of them appeared to be advertisements. Some of the translations were amusing eg. "Ducts also reduces the diameter of the cormorants and so on"
I suppose I'll have to keep digging away, and hope someone with the dusty will respond with a bit more info.

If the original manufacturers specs are for 50Hz motors, they'll probably meet that spec here. Since Austria/Europe are typically 50Hz, you're probably ok.

When comparing specs for taiwan/china/USA stuff, the spec sheet will say 3kW, 2800cfm. Unfortunately, four our market, they put a 3kW 50Hz motor on it which spins 15% slower, making much more than 15% difference to what they'll pull in terms or flow rate and static pressure.

The good thing about big motors and modest ratings is that it'll probably achieve it's flow with the bags installed, which is more than can be said for the asian DC arms race going on!

Check this out
Building a Bill Pentz's Designed Cyclone

He built a Bill Pentz cyclone and go all the way to the end ( http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/cyclone3.htm ) where he shows you how much actual debris and dust hits the final filters.
It's really quite amazing how well this system works.
Makes me want to build one.

I've been fiddling with the idea of a building my own wood impeller making it a fair bit larger in diameter (and and of course spinning it slower) than what the geomerty for a steel one usually is.

Originally Posted by Anodyne

Hi, I'm seeking opinions about the Felder AF22, single phase-3.0kw (4hp) which has one dust bag and an air volume of 3100 cubic metres/hour which by my calculations is a little over 1800 cfm. Although this has a large motor rating the cfm is relatively modest. They use a 160mm pipe and quote "maximum depression 2510 Pa" which I take to mean the suck factor but don't have anything to compare with. Is there anyone out there with technical knowledge to interpret these figures and explain to a mere mortal?

This is a very reasonable and realistic rating for such a unit. To capture fine dust at source of production Bill Pentz recommends a minimum of 1000 cfm and 4000 fpm which your unit easily reaches

BTW: Most manufacturers specs are at zero pressure differential so their rated CFM should be ~halved to be comparative to your proposed system.

Thanks for your reply. The info you provide about halving the output from the other machines is very helpful - I couldn't understand that a manufacturer who quotes very specific figures could lag behind the chinese/taiwanese machines, particularly given the build quality of the AF22. Felder are quite specific about the high amperage draw of their machines and the need to have a 20 amp circuit, preferably hard wired. They even indicate that failure to provide adequate power to 10% of tolerance is a reason to void warranty. I've talked to my sparky and will be installing 4.5 mm wiring which he tells me is rated to 32 amps. Now I just need to decide if I will install a remote switch to the dusty and connect each time, or go with the Felder switching which does it automatically when one of the woodwork motor starts, with a few seconds delay to avoid the surge current tripping the circuit. I suppose the convenience factor of option 2 will be worth the extra cost (or they wouldn't sell). Has anyone got this feature?.

How are you going with the Af22? I'm thinking of buying one.

Originally Posted by Anodyne

Thanks for your reply. The info you provide about halving the output from the other machines is very helpful - I couldn't understand that a manufacturer who quotes very specific figures could lag behind the chinese/taiwanese machines, particularly given the build quality of the AF22. Felder are quite specific about the high amperage draw of their machines and the need to have a 20 amp circuit, preferably hard wired. They even indicate that failure to provide adequate power to 10% of tolerance is a reason to void warranty. I've talked to my sparky and will be installing 4.5 mm wiring which he tells me is rated to 32 amps. Now I just need to decide if I will install a remote switch to the dusty and connect each time, or go with the Felder switching which does it automatically when one of the woodwork motor starts, with a few seconds delay to avoid the surge current tripping the circuit. I suppose the convenience factor of option 2 will be worth the extra cost (or they wouldn't sell). Has anyone got this feature?.

metres/hour which by my calculations is a little over 1800 cfm. Although this has a large motor rating the cfm is relatively modest.

It's not modest, but unlike most D.C. manufacturers, its more really realistic. No DCs can even get this flow rate with a 6" duct anyway. A 160 mm ducting will just get this if pushed.

[qupte]. . 2510 Pa" which I take to mean the suck factor but don't have anything to compare with.[/quote]
From memory this is about 10" of WC Which is close to std for these D.C.'s. The single filter bag probably constricts it somewhat.

I would rate that DC as somewhat over priced and I would recommend a Clearview cyclone instead.

, a hood over a lathe, and possibly a sanding machine running only one machine at a time.

I would recommend a hood BEHIND TH LATHE and sander if it is a belt sander, otherwise use a direct connection to the sander.

I'm undecided whether to have some form of separator between the dusty and machines to reduce filter filling and reduce chance of chips/other bits damaging the impeller

A Clearview has a sophisticated cyclone built into it. I would not recommend anything other than a custom designed cyclone be used otherwise they can rob significant air flow.

The CV will do everything you want but the decision is yours of course. The one single factor that would stop me buying one and I have discussed this with Felder when buying stuff from them is that in the end I would rather deal with a bin that holds the debris than try and empty a bag. The performance of the CV is also not affected due to no reduction of air flow which must happen with the Felder as the bag loads up. The more that goes into the bag the less surface area for the air to escape through must mean the air flow drops and that is apart from the walls of the bag being loaded with dust as well.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The one single factor that would stop me buying one and I have discussed this with Felder when buying stuff from them is that in the end I would rather deal with a bin that holds the debris than try and empty a bag.

Although I would much rather have a Clearvue, if needed it's very easy to replace the collection bags on any bagged DC with bins.

Just take one of the plastic bags and cut the bottom half off the bag.
Then buy a blue PE bin from gumtree, 60L bins can be had for ~$20, 150L bins are $50.

20dollarbin.jpg

Remove the galv lid bin clip and the lid and slip the bin up under the bag and replace the lid clip.

The seal around the bag won't be perfect, but then again it never is and it doesn't matter if the DC is outside

BTW Folks in Perth can buy 50L blue bins from our mens shed for $5 each.

The issue of the filter is a far more compelling one than the bin/bag.

I have had 4 of the 50L bins for several years and have been meaning to do this but just haven't got round to it,

Why would anyone spend that amount of money to do all that?

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Why would anyone spend that amount of money to do all that?

Exactly.

Has anyone ever had a chance to take some measurements on the AF-22? I know the rule of thumb is to halve the advertised CFM, but the much higher specced motors on the Felders ought to outperform the cheaper imports...? Also, for your information, the AF-22 can be ordered with a 200mm inlet. I know of several friends who have this machine: it does move a lot of air (how much I don't know hence the question), is quite noisy as a result, and the plastic bags can be annoying to clip/unclip. I do not have the AF-22, but the Felder RL250, which is a much bigger and more expensive machine. It is not perfect either but its capacity allows me to service my commercial shop. For example, I have a 200mm port directly behind my lathe which is very handy (I still need to make a large bell-mouth using BobL's instructions), and the pulsed air cleaning system is a joy to use in conjunction with my wide belt sander.