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  1. #1
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    Default FELDER RL200 and RL250 question

    Hi Guys:

    As some of you will know, I have been learning from BobL and others that my current system (extractor plus ducting) is inadequate.

    I am going to upgrade my RL160 and have been eyeing off the RL200. I have recently turned from serious hobbyist to part time professional (and hopefully full time professional in the next couple of years), with the usual tablesaw (Delta Unisaw), bandsaw (Felder FB540) and jointer/thicknesser (Format-4 Dual-51; I don't regret those Tersa knives one little bit!!). Also interested in ducting to drill press (for drum sanding) and lathe (also for sanding) and perhaps floor cleanup although the Festool CT48 does a good job there. I use my Kapex cut-off saw a lot, with dedicated CT36 but I still get a fair bit of dust from it -- a hood or something hooked up to the RL may be a possibility.

    My problem is that I have read Bill Pentz' site too much!! And my RL160 has never kept up with the output of the Dual-51 with any slab over about 350mm in width, unless I put the RL on a 1m duct right beside it. Even then, a 2mm bite out of a 450mm slab of hardwood has always been a bit too much for the 160, and with my current ducting run -- 7m at 150 diameter, I cannot avoid piling and significant amounts of chips/dust not contained.

    I want to completely replace my ducting as well and finally take the plunge and radically modify my machines to accept the magic 6" minimum dust collection outlets.

    The RL200 looks like an excellent option for me. It suits my space and location (garage attached to my house). What has thrown me for a loop is the massive difference between the RL200 and the RL250. Yes, the 250 is considerably more expensive but I'm keen to do this upgrade only once. And before anyone asks, I don't know if a wide-belt sander is in my future!? Certainly not in my immediate future but who knows.

    I'm sure you guys know the specs, but the enormous difference in filter size caught my attention the most. The RL200 has a 20m2 filter while the RL250 has a 50m2 filter area. By comparison, my existing 2006 model RL160 has a 10m2 filter. The other spec is weight. The RL200 weighs 380kg while the RL250 weighs a staggering 825kg. ?!? What the...? Why so heavy?

    I'm looking at the automatic cleaning versions as I have a history of not cleaning the filters enough. The Felder rep says the filters need to be cleaned every 30mins of run time. Really? (BobL -- I'm starting to understand the meaning of "quickly"! Finally, I'm pretty sure I don't have the option of venting outside as I live in a close residential area, with swimming pools all around. My shop area is 120m2.

    My gut feeling is that the RL250 is too big as I have no need to run more than one machine at once. I just want to make sure I can move enough air to finally achieve dust extraction not just chip collection.

    My kids often play in the corner of my shop and I cringe over what dust they have already been exposed to, let alone what I've choked down over the years.

    Unfortunately, I've left my email to you all a bit late, as I need to make a decision in the next 48 hours to avoid a price rise on Feb 1 with Felder. Thank you for any replies, and for your collective wisdom.

    All the best,
    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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  3. #2
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    Provided it's kept clean the increase in filter size is likely to be irrelevant as the limit will be the 6" ducting.
    Hence if the output of your big thicknesser is too much for the AF22 that's not going to change by just going to a bigger unit if you continue to use 6" ducting and you will need to go to bigger (8") ducting
    I would also get the big Clearvue over any of the Felder DCs.

    I also note the thicknesser has a 140 mm outlet, a 500+ mm planer will really benefit from being opened up to 200 mm to make it breathe better.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Provided it's kept clean the increase in filter size is likely to be irrelevant as the limit will be the 6" ducting.
    Hence if the output of your big thicknesser is too much for the AF22 that's not going to change by just going to a bigger unit if you continue to use 6" ducting and you will need to go to bigger (8") ducting
    I would also get the big Clearvue over any of the Felder DCs.

    I also note the thicknesser has a 140 mm outlet, a 500+ mm planer will really benefit from being opened up to 200 mm to make it breathe better.
    Hi BobL:
    Thank you for your thoughts.

    I am planning on installing 8" ducting for the main line, and keeping that same cross section for each machine. For example, the table saw and bandsaw would get approx 160mm below and 120mm above table, and yes I think I will have to open up the thicknesser planer to 200mm (8") as you suggest. Does that sound like it will work (better)?

    I'll have to search the forums for the best price/medium for 8" ducting. Otherwise, on the Clearvue, and without doing adequate reading (guess what I'm doing tonight!) I have two questions about the cyclone:

    1. Since my air must remain in the shed, what are all you Clearvue owners running for filters?

    2. My big thicknesser puts out an awesome amount of sawdust when I'm thicknessing a couple of cubic meters of hardwood. The 400L on the Felder unit, with plastic bags, is very handy as I can fill up a dozen bags (!!) in a day and take them all to the tip that evening. What kind of capacity do you guys have?

    cheers,
    david
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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    Sorry, should have also added that if I went with the RL250, it would need a 10" main line with some 6" and 8" down sections to maintain the cross section of suck -- sorry that didn't sound very grammatically correct but hopefully you can work out what I mean!

    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuck View Post
    Hi BobL:I am planning on installing 8" ducting for the main line, and keeping that same cross section for each machine. For example, the table saw and bandsaw would get approx 160mm below and 120mm above table, and yes I think I will have to open up the thicknesser planer to 200mm (8") as you suggest. Does that sound like it will work (better)?
    Yep

    I'll have to search the forums for the best price/medium for 8" ducting. Otherwise, on the Clearvue, and without doing adequate reading (guess what I'm doing tonight!) I have two questions about the cyclone
    Unless you go metal (i.e. $$) then 8" PVC is near impossible to find. The nearest size in PVC is 9" (also $$) especially the fittings. You could make the ducting as rectangular ducting yourself.

    1. Since my air must remain in the shed, what are all you Clearvue owners running for filters?
    Most Aussie Cleavue owners vent outside
    I'm not sure why your air air has to to remain inside the shed. The fine dust that comes through a DC would be invisible to your neighbours and the air does not have to be ejected via a small and hence noisy duct - it could be done via an acoustic trap with 6 ft 3 ft louvred front panel. 1800 CFM through 18 ft2 is 100 FPM or 1/2 m/s which is very quiet.

    2. My big thicknesser puts out an awesome amount of sawdust when I'm thicknessing a couple of cubic meters of hardwood. The 400L on the Felder unit, with plastic bags, is very handy as I can fill up a dozen bags (!!) in a day and take them all to the tip that evening. What kind of capacity do you guys have?
    Since CV owners have to supply that bit you can make it as big as you like.

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    Hi BobL:

    Again, thank you for your time and expertise. I suspect I'm in plenty of company in so saying.

    I was thinking of going with 8" metal ducting just for the mainline up the centre of my shop, and then reverting to lesser size PVC for the rest. Hopefully that will keep costs down.

    I hear you with regard to venting outside; it sounds (pun intended) like it will work for the noise issue. But for the invisible dust issue, unfortunately my pool is literally 2m away from my shop (I know, not ideal) and my neighbour's pool is nearby. I'm afraid the invisible dust will become "visible" on the surface of the pools. Maybe I'm concerned unnecessarily?

    As for the receptacle for collecting chips, the threads I've read this evening indicate that Clearvue owners prefer a canister rather than plastic bag. And many refer to manhandling or wheeling said canister (or bin) out to the garden or compost heap. I don't have that option due to the amount of material I make, and because I don't have the land for such disposal. Hmm, if I drain my pool, I could solve both my problems -- no water for possible settling dust, and a mighty big hole to compost sawdust!!

    Apologies if this thread is now too far off topic -- I was unsure of whether a new thread should have been started...
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuck View Post
    Hi BobL:
    Again, thank you for your time and expertise. I suspect I'm in plenty of company in so saying.
    I was thinking of going with 8" metal ducting just for the mainline up the centre of my shop, and then reverting to lesser size PVC for the rest. Hopefully that will keep costs down.
    That sounds OK - I would still try and do the big planer/thicknesser in 8"

    I hear you with regard to venting outside; it sounds (pun intended) like it will work for the noise issue. But for the invisible dust issue, unfortunately my pool is literally 2m away from my shop (I know, not ideal) and my neighbour's pool is nearby. I'm afraid the invisible dust will become "visible" on the surface of the pools. Maybe I'm concerned unnecessarily?
    My very fussy neighbours pool is about 3m away from my DC and there have been no probs with him but then again I'm not using your size machinery although I still don't think you would have a problem.

    What you have to remember is that normal air contains a sheet load of dust to begin with - anywhere from <100,000 to >30,000,000 particles of dust of 0.3 microns or bigger per cubic metre.
    The majority (typically 90% are in the <1 micron range)
    100,000 particles would be typical in a fully green, recently rain washed but now dry environment.
    30,000,000 would be in a high density urban environment where it has not rained for months.
    Near a coal fired power plant it goes higher again and something like a dust storm is is the 100,000,000+ range.
    Fortunately most urban generated airborne dust is in the invisible range otherwise we would not be able to see much and my question is when it gets hazy, do you see any of this dust in the pools?

    The leakiest DC I measured was in the 200,000,000 range
    The best DCs in light use are in the 100,000 range - the same as a low dust natural environment.
    A true high quality HEPA filter is extremely hard to measure but typicaly around 3000 - at work we stack two or more HEPAs together and this gets the dust count below our detection limit of 30 particles of dust of 0.3 microns or bigger per cubic metre.

    Here is an interesting calculation.
    Your Felder is rated at <0.1 mg/m3 wood dust emission, that means that this is the most it is supposed to ever emit, irrespective of how it is used.
    If you use 6" ducting almost irrespective of the manufacturers DC flow specs the 6" ducting will limit this 2125 m3/hr - once the filter gets dirty and if machine port restrictions are included it will be <2000 m3/hr - this means your Felder emits <0.1 mg/m3 x 2000 = <0.2 g of dust per hour , thats equivalent to about a 10 c piece volume of dust.

    0.2 g of wood dust can be equated equates to about 400,000,000,000, 1 micron size particles which is a lot, but that is dispersed in 2000 m3 of air every hour
    Thus the max concentration of particles coming out of the filters is <20,000,000 particles per cubic meter which is equivalent to hazy urban air.
    Please bear in mind that this is a maximum, and is a very simplified back of the envelope type calculation. In practice even a few bigger particles will significantly reduce the number of smaller ones.

    Now lets look at what happens when venting takes place outside a shed.
    If vent is done outside the shed the 20,000,000 particles per cubic meter is immediately diluted into a large volume of atmosphere AND since most of the dust will be warm and in the invisible range, it will rise and float like a gas for a couple of hours, some will even float away of its own accord, plus if there is any sort of faint breeze it will be quickly dispersed and carried away and it will not be seen or detected.

    Something to bear in mind is what do you think happens to these fine dust particles if venting is performed inside the shed, and also to the dust that is not captured at source by a DC inside a shed ? Unless the shed is hermetically sealed, no ventilation is employed (dangerous and silly) and there is an air lock on the door, then the shed will be leaking like a sieve and be emitting a plume of fine dust all over the neighbourhood. Everyones shed (and houses and cars and mowers etc) does that to some extent or other without them even knowing it. Fortunately most of the big (visible) wood dust particles will "fall out" inside the shed but some will still escape and these are what is likely to be seen by a neighbour in their pool - not the ones coming out of a DC filter.

    If a shed is air tight a continuously running DC will eventually replace all the non-wood dust in the air inside a shed with wood dust and the operator will be working in a fog of the finest wood dust. I'd much rather have as many of the fine wood dust particles outside my shed. While the Felders meet the European standard of <0.1 mg/m3 (which is 10 time better than the Australian Standard) the problem with expressing DC performance in mg/m3 is it still does not take into account the potential high numbers of fine particles involved which are the ones that get into deep air ways and can lead to problems. Newer specs will say something like XX mg/m3 of Y microns or smaller.

    If you decide to vent outside the only time a visual problem may arise will be during extended periods of very calm weather.
    Then the fine wood dust may accumulate in the air outside the shed and fall out and agglomerate on surfaces like a pool and become visible.
    However, all that is needed to disperse that amount of of dust is a extremely light breeze of >1 km/hr.
    If you were really worried about this you could invest in an air speed monitor and don't do heavy thicknessing or sanding when the breeze dropped below say 5 km/hr or even 1 km/hr.

    As for the receptacle for collecting chips, the threads I've read this evening indicate that Clearvue owners prefer a canister rather than plastic bag. And many refer to manhandling or wheeling said canister (or bin) out to the garden or compost heap. I don't have that option due to the amount of material I make, and because I don't have the land for such disposal. Hmm, if I drain my pool, I could solve both my problems -- no water for possible settling dust, and a mighty big hole to compost sawdust!!
    Yeah pools are nice for a season or two but based on what several of our friends have gone thru with them I am very glad we never got one. Besides pools would be wasted on me as I won't go into the water unless it's more than ~35º whereas SWMBO will go in at about half that - muggins here would be thus left with cleaning and servicing but rarely using it.

  9. #8
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    If you haven't already seen it this is a thread on 200mm metal ducting install and some machine hood mods I did.
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/d...rkshop-172717/


    Pete

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    Default I'm glad I'm not competing with BobL!

    Mate, your post is so comprehensive I don't know where to start. Well, yes I do. By acknowledging that your explanations of dust levels inside and outside the typical unsealed shed make short work of my concerns about dust potentially getting into my pool or the neighbour's pool!

    Pete, thank you for the 200mm ducting link. That is some very nice work there!

    Cheers,
    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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    David,

    Here is an interesting test for you to try next time you do some thicknessing, place a frying pan of water in a quiet corner of your shed and leave it there for 24 hours after you finish thicknessing and let's see what settles out.

    BTW do you have any regular shed ventilation?

    Cheers
    Bob

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    Default 8" vertical ducting...

    HI Bob:

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread. The water in the frypan test would be interesting although I often run many different machines in a day, and I fear all of them are contributing to my dust problem!

    I sent an email to Bill Pentz the other day, and he said he did not have any test results for an 8" drop. The biggest he's done is an 8" horizontal with 7" drop, which he says has enough airflow, i.e. 3800FPM, to work well with his cyclone. He is not sure whether the RL200 would be big enough for an 8" drop.

    According to Felder the nominal flow rate of the RL200 (at 20m/s) is 2300m3/hr and 2380Pa. While I would like to think Felder have published reliable data, I fear that they will be just as bad as the others with fudging...

    In this thread you have suggested that I am right to try to upgrade my 500mm thicknesser to a full 8". Do you know whether the RL200 will generate enough airspeed to pull the chips up a vertical 8"? Bill has suggested that I need to perform some testing. I would love to -- but other threads on this forum about anemometers -- suggest that it is not a simple thing. I know you know because I have been reading a lot of your posts in those other threads!

    Is your hot wire anemometer really expensive? Is there a reasonable alternative so I can check out an 8" installation myself?

    Cheers,
    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuck View Post
    According to Felder the nominal flow rate of the RL200 (at 20m/s) is 2300m3/hr and 2380Pa. While I would like to think Felder have published reliable data, I fear that they will be just as bad as the others with fudging...
    That is in fact the most detailed and realistic spec I have seen for a DC for some time.
    That can be translated to 4000 FPM, 1350 CFM, ~10" of water pressure and it even says indirectly it's for an 8" duct

    Those specs will be for the naked unit only as soon as the filters clog, constricted machine ports are used, and lengths of ducting and junctions are added it will drop off a bit - maybe to 2000 m3/hr. Given what it costs I would have expected a bit more more flow. The bigger Clearvue can do about 1600 cfm

    In this thread you have suggested that I am right to try to upgrade my 500mm thicknesser to a full 8". Do you know whether the RL200 will generate enough airspeed to pull the chips up a vertical 8"? Bill has suggested that I need to perform some testing. I would love to -- but other threads on this forum about anemometers -- suggest that it is not a simple thing. I know you know because I have been reading a lot of your posts in those other threads!
    Sorry I can't say, the biggest thicknesser my mate with the RL200 has is a 12". His most problematic machine is his wide belt sander which produces a lot of dust and he only draws on it with 2 x 4" ducts which is not enough.

    What sort of height are you talking about?

    Is your hot wire anemometer really expensive? Is there a reasonable alternative so I can check out an 8" installation myself?
    It's not expensive but it requires some skill in its use. You just cannot dangle the anemometer inside or in front of a duct and expect to get a sensible reading.

    I was planning on going back to my mates workshop and do some flow testing on his RL200 but I have hurt my foot and am a bit hobbled at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    That is in fact the most detailed and realistic spec I have seen for a DC for some time.
    That can be translated to 4000 FPM, 1350 CFM, ~10" of water pressure and it even says indirectly it's for an 8" duct.
    Hmm, that bothers me as BP guessed (and I suspect his guess is rather "educated") that I would need 18" WC to get sufficient airflow in an 8" vertical drop. He is certain, based on his testing of the RL160 that the RL200 is sufficient for 6" drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Those specs will be for the naked unit only as soon as the filters clog, constricted machine ports are used, and lengths of ducting and junctions are added it will drop off a bit - maybe to 2000 m3/hr. Given what it costs I would have expected a bit more more flow. The bigger Clearvue can do about 1600 cfm.
    Agreed. I have ordered the RL200, but not because I thought it had superior numbers than the Clearvue, or is "better" outright. I have my reasons for NOT going the Clearvue route, some of which I have aired already (e.g. dust outside which is no longer a reason thanks to you; the issue of chip capacity and the ability to fill as many bags as necessary is hugely convenient to me, etc.) and some which I have not aired (e.g. I physically do not have the space for an external cyclone unit; and I am very keen not to punch any holes through my double-brick house, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Sorry I can't say, the biggest thicknesser my mate with the RL200 has is a 12". His most problematic machine is his wide belt sander which produces a lot of dust and he only draws on it with 2 x 4" ducts which is not enough.
    Fair enough. The guys on the Felder Owner Group forum in the USA also confirm that the RL200 is insufficient for a wide belt sander. I don't have a wide belt sander but it sets off alarms for me anyway. All that money and not good enough for a wide belt sander?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    What sort of height are you talking about?
    About 2.5m. My ceilings are 3.5m and I have suspended my existing ducting down about a metre.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    It's not expensive but it requires some skill in its use. You just cannot dangle the anemometer inside or in front of a duct and expect to get a sensible reading.
    No worries. I'll hold off buying anything at the moment. Something else to learn!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    I was planning on going back to my mates workshop and do some flow testing on his RL200 but I have hurt my foot and am a bit hobbled at the moment.
    I'm sorry to hear that. Get well soon!

    As an aside, the RL250 has a max airflow of 5000m3/hr, a nominal airflow capacity of 3540m3/hr (at 20m/sec), and a static pressure of 2500Pa. I should have included the max airflow of 4000m3/hr for the RL200 (or is this a useless number?). It is interesting that the static pressure on the bigger RL is not that much more. And yet everything else about the machine is enormously bigger.

    I am leary with regard to your comment about these numbers pertaining to "best" conditions, without clogged filters, constricting ducting/ports, etc. One of the reasons why I really liked the look of the RL250 (despite the significant cost) is that it has a bagged filter system with a pulsed-air-cleaning mechanism. Also, the filter area of 20m2 on the RL200 is increased significantly to 50m2 on the RL250. I assume that this, along with the better filter arrangement and cleaning system, would equate to a better extractor all round? And yet, I've been told again and again (perhaps by not the right people) that the RL250 is way overkill, and is designed for use when three or more machines are in use. But according to you and Pentz, this is not the case, as it takes an almighty lot of air to get the invisible dust just for one machine.

    I've come this far, if I need to upgrade my order to the RL250, so be it. I looked briefly at the AL-KO units, which are supposed to be better again, but the cost is overwhelming.

    Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you BobL.

    Warm regards,
    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuck View Post
    Hmm, that bothers me as BP guessed (and I suspect his guess is rather "educated") that I would need 18" WC to get sufficient airflow in an 8" vertical drop. He is certain, based on his testing of the RL160 that the RL200 is sufficient for 6" drops.
    There's no machine around short of a noisy semi-turbine system that will generate those pressures.

    Fair enough. The guys on the Felder Owner Group forum in the USA also confirm that the RL200 is insufficient for a wide belt sander. I don't have a wide belt sander but it sets off alarms for me anyway. All that money and not good enough for a wide belt sander?
    I don't think it's the RL200's fault. If my mate was to take an angle grinder to his belt sander shroud and use 2 x 6" ducting I'm sure it would be much better.

    About 2.5m. My ceilings are 3.5m and I have suspended my existing ducting down about a metre.
    That is not outrageous but I suspect it will be borderline.

    I'm sorry to hear that. Get well soon!
    It's no big deal - just sore heel from plantar fasciists but it sure is painful!

    As an aside, the RL250 has a max airflow of 5000m3/hr, a nominal airflow capacity of 3540m3/hr (at 20m/sec), and a static pressure of 2500Pa. I should have included the max airflow of 4000m3/hr for the RL200 (or is this a useless number?
    y
    ep it doesn't mean anything.

    ). It is interesting that the static pressure on the bigger RL is not that much more. And yet everything else about the machine is enormously bigger.
    Just making the impeller and motor bigger to be able may grab more air provided bigger ducts are used doesn't generate a significant higher pressure. To get much higher pressures than these requires a semi turbine type impeller and then these things start to scream like a turbine.

    I am leary with regard to your comment about these numbers pertaining to "best" conditions, without clogged filters, constricting ducting/ports, etc. One of the reasons why I really liked the look of the RL250 (despite the significant cost) is that it has a bagged filter system with a pulsed-air-cleaning mechanism. Also, the filter area of 20m2 on the RL200 is increased significantly to 50m2 on the RL250. I assume that this, along with the better filter arrangement and cleaning system, would equate to a better extractor all round? And yet, I've been told again and again (perhaps by not the right people) that the RL250 is way overkill, and is designed for use when three or more machines are in use. But according to you and Pentz, this is not the case, as it takes an almighty lot of air to get the invisible dust just for one machine.
    I think you may be focussing too much of your effort on the DC. 90% of most woodworkers problems are not the DC, most the problems are back at the machine so I wonder if you thicknesser is getting enough air to begin. It's not just the size of the machine outlet that matters, e.g. does the thicknesser draw all of its air through the gap between the cutter head and the beds. If so, then this has to be remedied irrespective of what size DC you use and maybe just opening up the airways to help it breathe will be enough to carry all the sawdust even with 6" ducting. It really needs an airflow measurement in the duct while the thicknesser is connected and running to confirm if this is the problem. A manometer measurement just after the outlet compared to the pressure generated by the fully sealed system would be almost as useful as an air flow measurement..

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    Thanks BobL:

    You may well be right about my "over" focus on the DE (highly likely) but I certainly will not be neglecting the ducting side of things. I should have attacked my machines years ago but this time I'm convinced that I must. I have intentions to modify the TS, BS and thicknesser to ensure that enough air moves through them. I had thought I would use 200mm mains and a vertical to my three biggest machines, leave it at 200mm for the thicknesser, and split off to 160mm and 120mm for both the TS and the BS. I'm assuming this would work, and work well, with enough airflow.

    If I've understood you and BP correctly, I'll need to rethink these sizes, or else move up to the RL250. ?

    Interesting, I just had a good read of the Clearvueoz site and noted two things. First, are cyclones really 90dB? The RL200 is "supposed" to be 70dB. I wonder if these figures are accurate and how they are measured!? Second, I note that the Clearvue cyclones have a 4kW motor. The RL200 has a 5.5kW motor. Even if all other aspects of the two units are the same (which is undoubtedly not true!), the presence of the filter on the RL unit shows why it is not oversized at all. I imagine that the extra kilowatts are more than offset by that filter...

    I'm really tying my knickers in a knot over all this! I thought I was implementing an excellent dust solution when I bought the RL160, but it was/is underpowered, and while I installed 150mm PVC ducting, I did not go through with modifying my machines. This time I want to do it right. I'm committed to modifying my machines, and getting the ducting sized correctly. So, is it the RL200 or the RL250... hmmm

    Cheers,
    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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