Thread: Getting by: What's a baseline for the "average" woodie's shed?

Oh dear, I appear to have (re?)started an old flame war. My apologies- Most definately not my intention.

Bob, with regard to my comment on John's Mitre saw video, I was more looking at the black tabletop underneath it, and the fact it stays clean. That's pretty impressive.

Having had a look at the H&F site, the DC-7 looks like a pretty reasonable setup, and being only $530, it's not a ludicrously expensive option either. I acknowledge that it'll probably have a lot of the same limitations as the generic 2HP units floating around, but I'm starting from a better position, and making modifications to remove choke points and leaks will enhance the situation further. Pleated filters are a simple (if not super cheap) upgrade I could do when funds permit.

For the moment, with few large machines in my inventory, framing a wall up around it and venting it to the outside air isn't terribly difficult to achieve. I'll just have to make it non-permanent so I can shift the whole lot into a lean-to when I have more machines. If I get the ducting done right now, that'll be one less thing to bugger around with in the future.

Having read bits and pieces of the Bill Pentz site as suggested, protecting my respiratory capacity is worth at least this. My primary hobby is cycling, and I'd like to keep my lungs intact for that if I can at all manage it!

Do you guys know of anyone in the Canberra region with a good dust extractor system set up that I might be able to take a look at to get some ideas from? I'm looking at the setup here at work for ideas too.

Cheers,
Pete

i'd suggest whatever you get is overengineered (eg if you only rum one machine get something designed to service 2 (eg 2 or 2.5hp minimum) and port all the pipework and the dusty to outside in the back yard as far away as possible that way you get the dust out of the workshop altogether.

Originally Posted by McPete

Oh dear, I appear to have (re?)started an old flame war. My apologies- Most definately not my intention.

Pete,

No apology necessary ... not your doing. In fact It is me who should apologise for allowing your thread to be hijacked. I should have ignored the sniping. Sorry.

Originally Posted by McPete

Having had a look at the H&F site, the DC-7 looks like a pretty reasonable setup, and being only $530, it's not a ludicrously expensive option either. I acknowledge that it'll probably have a lot of the same limitations as the generic 2HP units floating around, but I'm starting from a better position, and making modifications to remove choke points and leaks will enhance the situation further. Pleated filters are a simple (if not super cheap) upgrade I could do when funds permit.

For the moment, with few large machines in my inventory, framing a wall up around it and venting it to the outside air isn't terribly difficult to achieve. I'll just have to make it non-permanent so I can shift the whole lot into a lean-to when I have more machines. If I get the ducting done right now, that'll be one less thing to bugger around with in the future.

Cheers,
Pete

Bob should be able to advise you on the choice of a dusty ... I know little about the different types, but I note the machine you are looking at is a 3 HP machine. I do like Trav's solution of putting the dusty in an enclosure that happily is handy in his case. That should give him pretty good protection against leaks. It will likely also help with sound suppression. Given you are thinking down the same path you might like to consider one of Soundman's recommendations, which was to park your dusty (in an enclosure), use minimal ducting/flexy, and roll your machines to the dusty. I don't know if that solution will work in your shop, but if it does it will keep your ducting short (better airflow) and less expensive (less ducting) at the outset.

I found the DC-7 an interesting unit. Does anyone have any first-hand info on its performance? It would be interesting to know how well it performs pulling air through several metres of ducting and a machine.

Cheerio!

John

McPete, no one can tell you the best system for your circumstances and I certainly have not the experience in this field to give you the answers you are looking for. I have only had my cyclone and 6" system set up for 18 months. After I installed it I realised it will probably extend my limited time left. I took the advice of those here who gave advice freely and without any intention of forcing their opinion on anyone because they care that we don't unintentionally shoot ourselves in the foot so to speak. Wood dust that can't be seen is dangerous in the extreme and you ignore it at your own peril. I was told after I set up my shop a few years ago that a particular timber was carcinogenic and be careful.

It wasn't until BobL brought it to my attention on these forums that there was a lot of "invisible dust" involved in our pastime that I realised the harm I could do to myself before it was too late. If you can afford to buy a machine to make dust look to the other machine to keep it out of your lungs as well or take steps to adequately protect yourself. Sellers of table saws say to you, be careful you use it safely so you don't draw blood. It can be MORE dangerous to your lungs and I personally don't believe this is ever brought to a buyers attention correctly. Most vendors tell you they have 4" dust ports on their machines but these are next to useless if you understand fine dust. Rant over.

Pete, look after your lungs so you can take your grandkids cycling in the future, they all be grateful you are still there for them.
Cheers, Ian

John,


I don't normally enter flame wars nor do I enter long debates about the opinions I express. I don't care whether someone agrees with them or not, at the most I might explain them. In the original thread I was not going into a further debate about it for I didn't want to get into a flame war.

However in this thread you specifically referred to me and what mindset I might have to have called you a born again dust messiah, so i explained further. Now I'm being asked again why, so at the risk of being repetitive the question was

but would love to know why you cant attach one of these 70$ wet drys to the extraction ports?

Indeed your first two lines of your post answered the question. No doubt about that. And IMO that was all that was needed.

But then you go on with a 691 word, 36 lines in an 8 paragraphed sermon on the need of a CV cyclone setup which is worthy IMO of referring to you as a born again Messiah speaking.

I hope that explains it sufficiently for you as this is my final post on this matter..


Peter.

I have to say that this whole dust extraction section of the forum has been hijacked......it should be renamed the "Invisable dust and clearvue cyclone forum", because it has turned into a one opinion one solution forum.

Just calling fine dust invisable dust is a calculated immotional tactic specifically designed to ingender fear.

The professional advertising manipulators know that the thing the humans fear the most is something they can not see.....we live in a time where even acedemics are prepared to use advertising word manipulation to get support for their viewpoint.

The whole matter of fine dust has been skewed and manipulated just like one would find in a religeous cult......a number of known facts taken and an extreeme position beyond sence and science, believed and preached as fact.

Fine wood dust as encountered in the home workshop is not "dangerous in the extreem"......if you believe that you have never encountered an extreemly dangerous situation and you have bugger all understanding of proper modern risk assessment.

Even the word dangerous is an emotive one and is generally avoided in the informed world of industrial safety.

Fine wood dust does not compare with asbestos....don't try pissing in my pocket and tell me it does.....time and time again people try to compare this dust or that to asbestos.....nothing compares to asbestos, either in the way it presents a hazard, the certainty of premature and painfull death once diagnosed or in the number of people who have suffered and died from it.

Fine wood dust does not compare with hydrofluric acid.

Fine wood dust does not compare with many woodoworking machines and practices of the past. Try and tell those old blokes, in otherwise perfect health with fingers missing that the dust is more dangerous than the machine.
And still we hear of people sustaining hideous injuries on modern machines...the dust does not compare.

Fine wood dust does not compare with a great many things that are encountered every day.

In fact I encounter more and nastier dust in my everyday work that I would in my workshop..and my dust extraction is less than ideal.

Fine wood dust is a moderate risk, and one that can be easily and cheaply managed.

There are very well known risks associated with wood dust, and there are very well known and frequently used measures that are proven to work.....if it was not so, we would have professional and amateur wood workers dropping like flies, current affairs stories, liability and compensation cases clogging our courts.

The vast majority of people who have definite and manifest problems with wood dust fall into two catagories....those with specific medical conditions, alergies and sensitivities....and those who simply have failed to take simple, basic and moderate measures to protect themselves......measures adequaite for the level of risk and exposure.

Now...yes fine dust is a problem.....but if you have dust, you have fine dust.....if the dust is sitting anywhere other than where it was thrown or fell......it is fine dust......look on your window sills, architraves and any thing high and flat.....if there is dust visable there......you have fine dust.......you need look no further......no instruments or complicated science required....and let me tell you it is far from invisable.

I know a couple of people who where regular on this board in the past who run clinicaly clean workshops....this is not most of us.

If you can see dust on your machines, benches or floors, stop kidding yourself about controlling invisable dust and put on some PPE and/or improve your ventilation.


We have this over emphisis on collecting fine dust....but what about the other fumes that we encounter in the workshop......no cyclone is going to help those.

Adequate ventilation is an imperitave in any workshop....deal with that and your risks assocated with fine dust will plummet.

As far as the whole "Clearvue" thing.......its a cyclone.....nothing special, just a fairly well designed cyclone.....cyclones are fairly easy to make and there are others equally adequate on the Austrailan Market.

In fact the Clearvue is far from an ideal cyclone and has several compromises ( like most of the commercial cyclones)......

Its got an MDF plate in to top for starters.....wot no moulded, cast or fabricated part in plastic or metal.

It is not a full sized cyclone...well not by Bill Pentz design anyway.....a full sized cyclone for a 6 inch inlet will be 24 inches in drum diameter and proportionally tall.

As I have mentioned before it uses a motor not designed for the Australian 50 hz supply and not convieniently sized for the way 240V is distributed.....in short not intended for the Australian market......generally we do not bother with 4 Hp motors, we either use 3hp or 5hp..it just works out that way....surely a 50 hz motor could be sourced.

As for being made of clear plastic.....that impresses me not..its just a marketing ploy.


the is a thread about the average woodie, not one that is petrified about dust or is hypersensitive.

cheers

I direct this one to Soundman for a few reasons, but mainly this one - his statement that dust can be managed cheaply.

This statement is without foundation. It is misleading and should be disregarded.

Or should I go back a step and politely enquire whether Soundman does any wood turning? Or woodwizzing? Or making endless lines of kitchen drawers out of treated melamine on a combination machine?

I suggest not. If he did, he would know for a fact that capturing fine dust at source when turning platters and large bowls is next to impossible when turning dry wood. I would even go further and suggest that even the best dust hoods connected to a powerful cyclone will not resolve the problem. And for me, it is now a problem. I have had allergic reactions to 4 different types of wood in the last month. As some may know, it may be an accumulative effect.

My "cheap" solutions thus far include (in just the turning room):

- a portable 2hp DC with an $800 pleated filter connected to a 4 inch large gulp chute
- 2 by 3/4HP Carbatec DCs
- 2 of the larger Microclene air filters (1200's from memory)
- 1 of the smaller Jet air filters.

I add that I run a very large Swampy to clear the dust as well when it's warm enough. (That one cost $3K, plus installation.)

I won't even talk about the 3hp DC or the unconnected 3hp cyclone in the main part of the shed. Or the big Jet air filtration unit there that, like the other air scrubbers, gets filthy with fine dust.

I add that in spite of the above investment, I still have a dust problem. Particularly in the turning end of my shed.

It gets cold here over winter too, with the snow maybe 30kms away.

Today, a mate of mine turned a 300mm platter out of osage orange. Dry and very dusty. All I did was sharpen chisel after dirty chisel and still I had a reaction.

So back to you Soundman to solve my dust problems. My budget is $4,500. That may be higher than some can afford, but I can't afford NOT to do something.







-

Yes I do have a lathe, and in the not so distant past I used to manufacture speaker boxes, equipment cases and specialised furniture for AV applications as well as doing some small sacle milling and other woodwork for my own amusement
.
I have at one time or another owned and operated various saw benches (My current is a 12 inch industrial machine), band saw, thicknesser, spindle moulder, various routers and sanders both hand held and stationary machines.

I know all to well that complete dust capture on many machines is nothing more than a fantasy......part of my point exactly.

But dust is a very simple thing and the PPE adequate for the purpose, varies from very cheap ( plain simple paper masks) to fairly reasonable in the top end...depending on the risk level involved and you own requirement for personal comfort.
On the matter if fine dust and woodturning....almost every serious amateur or professional turner I know of uses some sort of forced air helmet.......budjet between $400 and $1000 for something decent.

As for the rest of the capture issues.
I have been arround this thing a while & I have seen plenty of people fail to achieve anywhere near the capture rates I do and after spending quite a lot more money.

On the matter of wood turning....I consider the big gulp dust shoot one of the most pointless and ineffectual devices in dust collection and just considering the very idea, that one could work, shows a gross misunderstanding of air flow under suction.
As soon as you flare a dust collection device, you reduce air speed.....and dramatically.....and dust capture is all about air speed.
If you want anything like effective dust extraction on the lathe, keep the apiture small and keep it close to the work.
My most frequent dust extraction method on the lathe is the end of a 4 inch dust hose hung on my side of the tool rest or hooked to my side of the ways........a large amount of the time, I can see....visible dust comming off the job and turning to go down the spout.....AND much of the time the suction is between me and the work.

Pieces of sand paper and stuff frequently disapear down the spout.


On the matter of workshop air filters.....these have been discussed and tested at length.....most of them are inefectual at best, it has been argued that at worst all they do is recirculate fine dust and keep it in the air longer.

A classic example of an expensive solution that does not work.
Ya money would be better spent on some simple exhaust fans.

On the matter of MDF......personally I elect to use very little of the stuff....but if you are going to work with a lot of it...you are in a situation of increased risk....thus increased control measures are required.
Use of ventilation and PPE in addition to your existing dust collection should manage the risk adequately.

On the matter of wood alergies......well that is a whole other story.....if you want to work with toxic woods you need to know the risks and figure out how to manage them before you start.
Some of the worst woods will produce skin reactions in some purely from contact with the solid timber, dust or chips.
SO..how much do you want to work with these woods.....enough to dress in tyvec and wear gloves and a powered air filter hood.

A lot of the time the best option is to do what the informed OHS people recommend in every high risk situation.
Change the way things are done, use a different machine, do the process differently or simply don't do it at all.

Just changing machining rebates on the spindle moulder or router table, from face up to face down can reduce the amount of uncontrolled dust dramatically.

As I said, many processes and methods of the past are simply unacceptable.....but people still persist with them.

I know plenty of people who will insist that it is impossible to controll dust when routing speaker holes and the like.
Long ago I built a suction box out of scrap ply, that reduced uncontrolled dust from this process to nearly zero....as all dust after the first punch thru is drawn thru the work and away.
Its made the difference, from a pile of dust and chips on the floor an inch thick at the end of the day and crap sprayed everywere and all over me, to all but a few grains of dust on the top of the work.

So much of the time getting a result is about, thinking and findinding a solution and not looking for a magic bullet or throwing money at it.

dust is a far from intractable problem.

cheers

Ah, Soundman, you are back from your daytime working duties, so thank you for contributing to the national wealth.

You still haven't convinced me that you are truly a woodworker.

So you are a woodturner? If so, show me what you can do. Big stuff and small. And then compare with mine.

What machine do you drive? Tools? Machines? (In other words, do you cut or scrape your way to a decent shape?)

What dust collection system do you have to support your turning hobby?

Answer the question, it's simple enough.

I ask the questions and you answer the questions. Simple. You still haven't explained how a 2 hp DC works for wood turners. Unlike a cyclone that cleans the air every (maybe) ten minutes or so. Better than anything.

I bet I have better equipment than most. Saws, lathes etc. But not dust extraction.

I think that is the fatal mistake. Wood workers keep buying equipment but never upgrade their dust system. For example, my 19 inch CT bandsaw has no inlet area for the dust to go up the spout. That's just the dust I can see, not the fine stuff that gives woodworkers grief. Same with my Sawstop TS.

In summary, you are irresponsible in giving advice about dust control. You are near foolish in saying that invisible dust is not a hazard.

Do you have any form of filtration control happening? (And that is not enough.)

I do not wish it on you, but cancer caused by wood dust is real. Google it.

Oh, so sorry, you don't know that the dust from blackwood, sassafras, coolabah and gidgee are dangerous to your health. But you already know that.

And choose to ignore it.

Join the IWCS and they give you a book for $10 that shows some of the more dangerous woods. In fact, I'll send you a copy for free with a PM and address.

First priority is dust control. Machines come second.

Show every one here that you can work wood safely and we will believe you.

I took some pics of my mate sanding a platter yesterday and most of the dust went out the door, due to the AC on the roof.

Wake up and come to my real shed and see what dust lies uncaptured.

Yes I am back from my day job.....these days I work as a Soundman and AV Technician, on contract in a couple of major venues......and it pays better and more consistently than woodwork ever did.

Jefferson mate, I am not going to get involved in a pissing contest about what sort, standard or amount of wood work I do or have done. It changes the facts not a bit.

I'll also not respond to the personal atacks and name calling.

I will however respond to your failure to read and comprehend and your misrepresentation of what I have said.

Firstly I have never said that fine dust is not an issue.....in fact explicitly the opposite.

My frequent point is that by far most people have failed to deal with a gross dust problem and there will be large quantities of dust of all sizes......deal with the general dust problem wisely and the fine dust will go with the rest.

I find in almost every field of endevour I become involved in there are those who are prepared to argue the complicated, minute and the obtuse and fail to deal with the simple, the straight forward and the easy.

Time and time again I walk into situations where " smarter people then me" have tried to impliment complicated and expensive measures and failed to achieve a result because they have failed to address the simple, the straight forward and the easy.

Then as enquiries are made, it turns out that those responsible in the situation have rejected prevous advice to address the simple, the straight forward and the easy, in favour of a more complicated and usually expensive solution that did not work.

OH and of course, the number of times I have heard people say..."we tried that & it didn't work"...upon further investigation...yes, yes, the simple solution was tried....but almost without exception...... one or more very simple factors where not correctly implimented resulting in the abject failure to achieve a result.

Funnily enough, when the simple, straight forward and easy solution is implimented..properly....it works very well.




For the most part the solutions to wood dust hazards are simple, straight forward and easy......often not as cheap as most people would like but affordable just the same.

BUT people continue to argue about the complicated, the uncommon and the obscure......AND continue to spend money on solutions that do not address the simple, the straight forward and the easy..

As for wood turning and the 2 Hp dust extractor.......as has been recommended by many on this very forum....the simple, the straight forward and the easy thing to improve the air quality in your workshop is to to get the thing out of your workshop or to enclose it so it discharged its air flow outside the workshop.....in short cut a hole in the wall and put it outside......plenty of people have done this and proven it effective

It matters nothing what sort of filtration is used, discharging contaminated air outside the workshop is simple, straight forward and easy and is a guaranteed air quality improver.......but so many people don't seem to want to hear that.

The second matter for wood turning dust extraction is, to reject any form of large funnel, shroud or hood as an effective method of dust capture....go back to a single 4 inch diameter pipe and get it close to the work.
Mounting methods can vary from the crude to the very clever..this works and very well.

Capturing the dust as close as possible to the source is consistent and relaible advice......good airflow and as close as possible to the source.....it is simple but many just don't get it.

Onto the matter of wood dust and cancer.......wood realted respiratory cancer is uncommon....and I dare to say those that suffer from it have either been heavily exposed, have compounding factors or have worked with particularly hazardous timbers...

For those of us that take simple, basic and sensible precautions the risk of contracting wood derived respiratory cancer is about as likely as being eaten by a shark, killed by a vending machine of struck by lightning....BTW, in the US they tell us more people are killed by vending machines than sharks or lightning.....and not even close to being killed on the road.

As far as knowing what woods are dangerous.......somewhere in the information section of this forum there is a text freely available on "dangerous woods".....like many I read it over a decade ago.


Now into your band saw......yes I have a 17 inch band saw.....( so yours is bigger than mine..big deal)....it came equipped with two dust ports.....neither of which I use.....I found the most effective is to place a 100mm pipe directly under the table straight up against the lower guides.......this I find very effective at capturing the vast majority of anything that comes thru the table.......there is the issue that some dust remains stuck to the teeth of band saws and will be carried into the case, but mostly this is coarse and it stays where it falls.
Collecting dust that remains above the table is a minor issue as most of it is coarse, but if it concerns you some work (like flat pieces) will allow you to run some sort of overhead suction above the table....I don't bother.

Wake up and realise that there are people who have done this before, have done the research, know the issues and the practicalities and have had this discussion years ago.

We keep comming back to the simpleset and cheapest solution, and that is PPE....but so many people don't want to hear that.
There are all sorts of other measures, but none of them will ever be 100% effective in practical or economic tems in the vast majority of cases.
BUT sommany people don't want to wear, ear eye and respiratory protection.

Being a Soundman, I value my hearing and have always worn good hearing protection where ever there is risk, I own some of the best hearing protection available on the market and have been known to wear it 8 to 10 hours a day.....I have put up with jibes and derision for most of my working life on the matter. Now over 50, I find I have hearing better than most people my age.....I frequently find I encounter those sorts of people who deride my wearing of hearing protection...and I realise though they may be decades younger than me, I hear very much better than they do....even when I amd still wearing ear plugs.

Over and over again people reject the use of simple and effective Personal Protective Equipment.
Plenty complain that it is either ineffective or uncomfortable.....then I look at the crap they are using.

The simple solution, and that many people do not want to hear is good PPE.....but you need to buy GOOD PPE that is comfortable, effective and lasts.
Simple, straight forward and easy.

cheers

Jefferson,

New thread with questions about dust control on lathes started here ... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/d...2/#post1719721

Cheerio!

John

Originally Posted by McPete

Do you guys know of anyone in the Canberra region with a good dust extractor system set up that I might be able to take a look at to get some ideas from? I'm looking at the setup here at work for ideas too.

Cheers,
Pete

Pete

I don't yet have a good system, but happy to catch up and compare ideas about how to get a better system. I'm about to post a long thread seeking direct feedback on my plans, so that should give me some clarity about next steps.

Trav

Noted on the PPE Soundman. I've been looking at masks, particularly some of the 3M ones- I used some really excellent 3M masks when I worked in the Port Kembla steelworks, working around stuff far less pleasant than wood dust! I have a pretty low opinion of the cheap paper masks, but they are better than nothing. What do you tend to use? I'm leaning toward a cartrige based organic solvent vapour and particulate model

Sounds good Trav, I'll be keen to swap notes with you as I go through putting my workshop together. What part of town are you in roughly? We're inner south at the moment, but we should be signing contracts for a place in western Belconnen later this week!


Cheers,
Pete

Sorry Pete. I missed your response. I'm in Weston Creek, close to where you are now. Not so much when you move to west Belconnen!

There's a few of us from here who get together periodically, so you might like to come along to one of those catch ups too. I'll let you know when we plan the next one.

Trav