Thread: Getting by: What's a baseline for the "average" woodie's shed?

Originally Posted by McPete

Having trawled through a number of highly informative threads here on dust extraction, I still find myself unsure of what a "basic but serviceable" dust extraction system would consist of.

It depends if you want a system that
a) keeps a shed clear of chips, whereby a broom and a budget level vacuum cleaner will do.
OR
b) You want a system that reduces health risks that may arise from exposure to fine dust.
The requirement to minimise exposure to fine dust is for DC systems that generate 1000 real cfm at source of dust making activity AND 4000 fpm in ducting

Are the needs of handheld tools different to those of bench tools?

I'm not sure what you mean by bench tools.
Apart from hand sanding, hand held tools like planes, chisels, saws make relatively little fine dust but power tools will contaminate a shed with fine dust well beyond OHS levels within minutes of use and machinery will do that within seconds of use.

I think I have said more than enough on this topic but let me add that good passive cross ventilation is a cheap investment. e.g. a roller door on one side and a couple of larger windows on the other are worth it and whatever system(s) you end up getting, venting any systems outside the shed is also worth doin

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the quick reply.

What I'm shooting at is the fine dust collection.

What I have in mind for myself is a 2HP dust collector of the flavor offered by Carbatec or Hare and Forbes, directly connected to a given machine. Having the dust collector on a mobile base and bringing it to each machine would be the intent. Is this enough to arrest the fine dust produced by the larger, dustier machines? I presume going to 150mm ducting is still advisable to prevent undue pressure drop?

By bench tools, I was meaning table saws, bandsaws, router tables and the like, against things like random orbit sanders, circular saws, jigsaws and other smaller power tools. I presume they'd be no different to larger tools in being better served by more volume, rather than high pressures (As in a vacuum cleaner).

Point taken on the cross ventilation, I'll do that. My other question then is on lathes- What can one do to contain the dust generated through turning? I know a lot of the waste comes away as large shavings, but I again presume some hazardous to health particulates are released?


Cheers,
Pete

Originally Posted by McPete

What I'm shooting at is the fine dust collection.

What I have in mind for myself is a 2HP dust collector of the flavor offered by Carbatec or Hare and Forbes, directly connected to a given machine. Having the dust collector on a mobile base and bringing it to each machine would be the intent. Is this enough to arrest the fine dust produced by the larger, dustier machines?

No one can make a definitive claim of yes or no on this question as there are to many variables involved. i.e. the way you work, what materials you deal with, the state of your machinery, length pf grandmas nose etc
For something like a drill press I feel confident that it would be fine but for something like turning a large bowl probably not.
Connecting directly to a machine usually means not venting it outside - this is not good as they (especially those that are moved around from machine to machine) generally leak like a colander and spray fine dust all over the place.

The stock 2HP DC starts out well below the recommended baseline and I would definitely not recommend using a stock 2HP unit i.e. see https://www.woodworkforums.com/search...archid=2229254
I do not make it clear in that thread that using 6" ducting on a generic 2HP DC without those mods will not increase the flow significantly and may restrict the ducting with sawdust as the air speeds will be too slow.
That thread shows that significant modifications are required to get it close to recommended specs but even so it still does not generate the recommended CFM/FPM.
A modified 2HP DC is what I called the borderline DC - unfortunately it's mostly on the wrong side of the border and only gets further away from the wrong side if long ducting runs are used, and you want it venting outside the shed, and you machine ports are not opened up etc.

The modified 2HP DC is what I call an intermediate, budget level, solution - it is better than the stock 2HP DC but not as good as a 3HP unit and a long way from a 4HP unit.
The 3HP units are also border line machines but mostly on the plus side of the border as long as ducting runs are kept short and bags kept clean.

By bench tools, I was meaning table saws, bandsaws, router tables and the like, against things like random orbit sanders, circular saws, jigsaws and other smaller power tools. I presume they'd be no different to larger tools in being better served by more volume, rather than high pressures (As in a vacuum cleaner).

More or less correct

Point taken on the cross ventilation, I'll do that. My other question then is on lathes- What can one do to contain the dust generated through turning? I know a lot of the waste comes away as large shavings, but I again presume some hazardous to health particulates are released?

There is a good thread on this here https://www.woodworkforums.com/search...archid=2229254

Peter,

A bit over a year ago I was trying to make the same decision you are now making. I found it helpful to lay out a list of priorities in a wish list. Mine was:

1. To achieve the magic numbers of 1000 CFM and 4000 FPM so I had a shot at capturing the very fine material and at avoiding clogged lines ... or put another way, LOTS of airflow.
2. A ducted system so I was not dragging machines around the workshop.
3. To vent outside (no filters or bags ... out of laziness as well as effectiveness).
4. A small footprint (so I could keep the system in the shop and did not need to build a shed outside for a dusty).

The cheapest system to meet all my wish list was a Clear Vue cyclone. A 3 HP dusty was too big for my shop, and would have needed its own small shed outside the shop, making it too expensive.

I am a fan of Bob's optimised 2 HP dusty, because it creates a reasonable dust extraction solution at a far lower cost than a 3 HP system or a CV cyclone. However, as Bob said, it is borderline and dustys tend to leak fine dust. Also, I wanted a ducted system.

After a lot of agonising I bit the bullet and installed a CV cyclone. It is a decision I have never regretted.

Have a look at these 30 second videos. Table Saw Overhead Dust Collection.wmv - YouTube Drop Saw dust collection - YouTube Linisher Dust Collection - YouTube

Cheerio!

John

Good Morning Peter

I fully endorse what Bob and John have said. Before you start planning a dust system, you need to understand the physics involved - its really basic high school stuff, just specialised. My suggestion would be:

• read and digest Bill Petz's stuff ( billpentz.com ),
• read and digest as much of BobL's stuff as you can find,
• continue this debate untill you are comfortable with what you can and should do, and
• disregard most claims made for commercial dust extractors. They do not exactly lie, but they do manipulate the data. [eg Key performance indicator is airflow through a duct, but manufacturers routinely measure airflow without any ducting connected. Bob suggests that reality may be closer to half their common claims; perhaps Bob is an optimist?]

When I moved into my current place 20 years ago I thought the 15 x 25 shed was luxurious - it was after my previous place where I use a (disused) brick outdoor dunny. I made a number of basic mistakes which are now difficult to fix - where do I put all my "stuff" while I work on the shed?

• I assumed that the concrete floor was flat and level. Its neither - at least 50 mm out of level. Everytime I move a bench or table, then it wobbles and I have to chock and level it ==> PIA,
• Brick walls are painted "primer pink", one wall and ceiling is estapolled pine VJ - these are both light absorbing colours. Should have painted everything white, or light colour,
• Have 4 x 1200 mm double fluoro lights on 3 metre ceiling. This is insufficient - need at laest another two, (or more?) fluoros,
• Need more powerpoints. Too many is almost enough!
• Three-phase power would be nice. When the global financial crisis hit, I drooled over the 3-phase stuff then being given away at auction,
• Storage - ladders, planks, timber and sheet material - will become an issue.

Hindsight is a great instructor.




Fair Winds

Graeme

Good thread. I'm finding it useful too.

FWIW, I'm going down the modified dusty route, though ideally building the ducting to fit a clearvue in the future. I've had a few unexpected health issues in the last month that has put the brakes on my work, but my intention is still there.

I'm fortunate that I've got a little 'entry room' in my workshop that is the perfect size for a dusty. I'll add a door or simple wall to separate it from the rest of the workshop to isolate the dust. I've bought a few boxes of 150mm PVC ducting and have begun rearranging my workshop to better position some of the machines.

If I didn't already have a 2hp dusty, I'd probably go straight to a clearvue. But I figure I'll give the 2hp a go first and if it is insufficient, then got to a clearvue.

Trav

Thanks for the good input here folks!

I'm afraid neither of those links work for me Bob, but I'll try to chase that stuff down later.

I'm in two minds at the moment, and really, I'm leaning toward a good respirator and open doors until I can actually get a ClearVue into the budget. I'm not keen on spending significant coin on something that ends up as a temporary solution. I will bear the ducting in mind when I get the lighting done though.

The demonstration of the mitre saw from John is pretty telling. That's a system that works. Unfortunately, my shed is a single garage (Plus maybe 20% extra), which I don't want to loose any space in, and adding an external woodshed is problematic.

Clearly I have a bit more reading to do, thankyou Graeme, John and Bob!

Cheers,
Peter

Originally Posted by McPete

Unfortunately, my shed is a single garage (Plus maybe 20% extra), which I don't want to loose any space in, and adding an external woodshed is problematic.

That's one of the reasons I opted for a CV ... it has the smallest footprint of all the machines I found. It's footprint in the same size as the garbage can.

My shop vac is attached to an external wall under a hood (see pic). This makes me wonder if a similar arrangement (perhaps with a taller hood, like a one square metre cupboard mounted off the ground) would work for a CV cyclone. It would be necessary to ensure cooling air got to the motor, but all other considerations, like noise suppression, are things we must deal with anyway.

IMAG0318[1].jpg

Cheerio!

John

Originally Posted by McPete

Thanks for the good input here folks!

I'm afraid neither of those links work for me Bob, but I'll try to chase that stuff down later.

Try these links
dust collection for woodturners
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/dus...urners-177866/

Generic 2HP DC and mods
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/g...2hp-dc-171247/

The demonstration of the mitre saw from John is pretty telling. That's a system that works. Unfortunately, my shed is a single garage (Plus maybe 20% extra), which I don't want to loose any space in, and adding an external woodshed is problematic.

The ability of s DC system to pick up chunks only tells you if the system has enough air speed it does not indicate if there is enough flow which is what is critical for fine dust collection.
A vacuum cleaner will also pick up chunks if the nozzle gets close enough but it won't have the flow to grab all the flow coming off larger dust making machines
There no immediate visual cues that will tell you if all the fine dust being generated is being collected.
A long term visual cue of inadequate dust collection is a slow settling out of very fine dust all over the shed.

The reverse is also possible, the air speed may be too low to pick up shavings coming of turned objects but it is possible to collect the majority of the fine dust being made at the same time while using a lathe

What a lot of people on this foum consider " a base line" are simply unachieveable and unaforadable for many woodworkers.

When I started motorised woodworking and baught my first saw bench I was working in a single car carport on a dirt floor all run from a single 10 amp powerpoint......the dust from the couple of machines I had did not seem to bother me at the time....this was a time when the triton saw bench was at its height of popularity and we had yet to see affordable real saw benches or any sort of dust extraction widely used in domestic workshops........I do not want to go back there.

The space of a single car garage and the restrictions on power available.....a single 15 or 20 amp outlet and a couple of 10 amp outlets on a shared curcuit..is a very real restriction for many woodworkers.

3 or 4 Hp dust extractor motors are nothing but a fantasy for this group of woodworkers.

Firstly in this day and age, you MUST have some sort of dust extraction, it makes your workshop much safer in many ways and makes you machines work far more effectively.

Don't believe anybody that says, dust extraction that does not produce magic figures is worse than none at all.
AND before you start worrying about the Invisable dust worry about the stuff you can see.....the stuff you can see will make you crook in the short term.

For your small hand held motorsied tools like sanders and routers......a good industrial vacuum cleaner is what you need as a minimum............We all know BobL hates vacuum cleaners....and possibly with good reason....there are some real stinkers out there.......useless things that have bugger all suck and have filters that could be more accurately called gratings ......do ya research...there are some pretty fair units out there and price is not necesarily an indicator of quality......I've been running a Pullman for over 10 years that has a large needelfelt bag and plenty of suck.

If you want to reduce the problem ofinvisable dust...buy a long hose and put it out side when you use it.
Down the track a way you may want to build or buy some sort of additional dust seperator.

One of the best things I ever did was start to use extraction with any hand held machine that would take it......the difference it makes to the performance and comfort of using sanders is massive.

On the matter of the larger machines and in small spaces.....you are going to need to move machines anyway, just to get reasonable in and out feed access.....so leave the dust extractor in a good place and move the machine to the extractor.

I know people on this forum have banged on add nausium about "magic numbers" and Invisable dust......Oh please give me a break......

Running most larger wood working machines without some sort of dust extraction is just not a good idea...even if you work under a lean too with no walls....Dust and chips lying arround and in piles on the floor is just not safe or convienient....AND all this crap gets in the way and many machines perform poorly without extraction....planers and thinckessers for example.

So even if it is a pissy little 1Hp cheapy, its better than nothing...but for basic effectivness you need to be looking at a 2Hp machine.
look at the machine you buy and look for stuff that does not make sence......like transitions that do not look smooth and efficient and the size and shape of the coupling between the blower and the bag.

There are some significant improvements in efficiency and effectivness that can be made with these common extractors..if you can be bothered.

These days most half decent units come with needle felt bags..that work much better than the standard calico bag that they all came with 10 years ago.....the single biggest upgrade you can make is fitting a pleated cartrige filter...and these days they are quite affordable.

Beyond that there are mods and things like cyclones you can build.

Again with a single car garrage.....ya pretty well skint for space......a couple of meters of 100mm plumbing pipe will allow you to wheel the machine outside if you cant house it outside.

If ya not running far 100mm duct is fine...and that is the trick.....don't run it far.

A couple of blokes I know with very small sheds have the extractor just on the other side of the wall outside.....total duct length 1 meter....with a couple of short lengths of flexy hose to connect to machines.

Lots of turners have the lathe against a wall with the extractor right outside.

If you got lots of money to spare.....pleanty of space and plenty of power available..hell go install your duct system and ya cyclone running a blower with more power than ya machines.....and start talking about magic numbers......but for most of us that is so far from practicality its just not worth discussing.

cheers

We all know when dust extraction is not satisfactory ... fine dust collects on surfaces far from the machines. If we have a problem, it is obvious.

Most of us agree that dust control in our shops is important. Most of us agree that the minimum sized system for reasonably effective dust extraction is an optimised 2 HP dusty and a short length of connecting flexy. Most of us agree that a 3 or 4 HP system gives superior results, but they are more expensive. As a young man I could not have afforded a CV. Now, as I enter semi-retirement I can. So I did. We all do what we think is important, within the limitations of our budget.

Before I bought a new dust extraction system much research was done. Government and OHS studies were included, as were some uni studies. They all agree that it is not the visible dust that damages our health. Is is principally the sub-10 micron dust. That's why when big chips fly out of the negative pressure bubble at my drill press I ignore them ... so long as I create a big negative pressure bubble and catch the fine stuff, I am content. Just to be sure that was understood, all the science available states that it is not the visible dust that hurts our health, it is the invisible (principally the sub-10 micron) dust. Claiming we should worry about the visible dust before focussing on the invisible material is not a position supported by research and data. It is folklore.

Studies show That about 5% of all dust produced in a woodies shop is fine, but let's say you catch half of it at the source using (say) a 1 HP dusty. Next time you are emptying your dusty, put half the contents of the bag or bin on the floor. Halve this again and discard the other half. Your pile is now about 25% of the bin contents. Halve it again, now it is 12.5%. Halve it again and you have about 6%. Halve it one more time and you have about 3%. This 3% of your bin or bag is roughly the amount of very fine dust put into the air as you filled the bin. Halve it again to about 1.5%, if you like ... it is still a daunting pile.

Now, take a good long look at that pile and ask yourself if you are willing to risk your lungs with enough dust to make your shop unsafe many, many times over. If you are ... that's your call. I was not willing to do so. That's my call, and mine alone. I made the decision. I paid for it. No readers of this thread contributed a penny. Nor did they contribute an ounce of sweat. Some, like BobL, contributed significant help and advice, for which I am grateful. What surprises me is that so many want to accuse me and others who think in a similar way of banging on. In one case I was called a born again dust messiah. From what mindset does this petty sniping spring?

After my cyclone was installed, a layer of very fine dust built up on the wall behind the shop vac. At first it was invisible, but as the layer built up, it became visible and finally a bleedingly obvious thick layer of fine dust that was very easily disturbed. I left it, to see what would happen. After a while, this very fine dust started to appear on both horizontal and vertical surfaces further and further from the vac. It was always there, but took a little time to become a thick enough layer to become visible. One or two thimblefuls of this stuff suspended in the air was enough to breach most OHS standards. So, the vac was banished outside. Problem solved, but the nature and degree of the fine dust problem had become obvious.

Most of my dust now comes from hand drills and hand sanding and similar. A large fan encourages good cross ventilation in these cases, and I am playing with other improvement ideas.

We are all painfully aware that not everyone can afford a 3 or 4 HP system. That's why I am such a fan of Bob's optimised 2 HP dusty, which puts reasonable dust collection within the reach of most woodies. But it has problems. Leaks can and do occur. Airflow is not quite as high as we would like, and so on (see BobL's threads). So the woodie using a 2 HP (optimised) dusty is well advised to ensure good cross ventilation is a feature of the shop, and a good mask should be seriously considered, especially when a lot of fine dust is being produced. I do not retreat from the claim that a CV cyclone is the best small shop system available, because right now that is the unvarnished and largely unchallenged truth. However, we all appreciate that not everyone is able and willing to spend the necessary dollars. Enter Bob's optimised dusty and good cross ventilation ... but it won't work well as a ducted system ... it can leak ... and I am too lazy to be constantly cleaning filters/filter bags.

Nobody ... not me nor anyone else I have found on this board is saying everyone must use a 3 or 4 HP machine. We are saying that these are the best systems available and should be considered where finances allow. Where they do not, there are other options, as discussed above. One that can't be recommended is a 1 HP dusty. Even if in perfect condition it will not pick up enough of the fine dust, and a good mask is necessary to protect lungs. Go back and look at the pile that is only about 1.5 to 3%% of you dusty's bag contents for ample evidence.

I stand accused of "banging on" about "invisible dust". Guilty as charged, but at least the science supports this position. Others are guilty of promoting a "rough enough is good enough" or "something is better than nothing" approach and downplaying the very real risks. Which is the lesser crime? How many detractors know what percentage of full-time woodworkers develop lung problems caused by wood dust? I do; it is an ugly figure. These research data are available for anybody who can spell Google.

Those who choose to work in a dusty environment are free to do so. Those who think a 1 HP system is better than nothing or "good enough" are free to so believe. Apparently, those of us who believe we should be concerned about fine dust are banging on about nothing ... are unrealistic ... are unpractical ... are born again dust messiahs ... and so on and so forth,per tedium ad nauseaum, ad infinitum ...

My recommendations are simple. If you can afford a CV, get one. If you don't want to spend quite so much, get a good 3 Hp dusty. If this is still too expensive, get an optimised 2 HP dusty and be careful with maintenance and cross ventilation (and consider a mask). If you are using anything less than an optimised 2 HP dusty, please wear a good mask when working. Of course, this is only my opinion. Readers are free to do whatever pleases them. Whatever you choose, I promise I won't come to your shop and condemn you to the fires of a dusty Hades.

John,

I've been following this and other threads on cyclones and fine dust. I guess it's safe to say that most present here agree with you and Bob L. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way.

One thing that hasn't been given much attention is the issue surrounding choice. For example, I choose to live in an old weatherboard house and drive a 2001 Toyota. I also choose to have a 25 x 9 metre shed full of woodworking gear. Including 3 lathes worth over $5K apiece. Plus lots of other expensive toys.

And yes, I do have a dust problem that is affecting my health. And I am already talking with ClearVu Oz about a solution.

So when I hear someone argue that their so-called budget doesn't extend to protecting their health, I always wonder about the choices they are making. Do they smoke? Go out a lot? Wear really nice clothes? Live in a nice new 4 bedroom brick veneer with no shed?

For maybe $4K or less, you can achieve an almost dust-free environment. A ducted cyclone and even an air filtration unit. And yes, for me it will be going on the credit card. I only live the once.

Originally Posted by jefferson

One thing that hasn't been given much attention is the issue surrounding choice. For example, I choose to live in an old weatherboard house and drive a 2001 Toyota. I also choose to have a 25 x 9 metre shed full of woodworking gear. Including 3 lathes worth over $5K apiece. Plus lots of other expensive toys.

Jefferson,

Valid point. My wife and I drive 2002 model vehicles, bought second hand. It's a choice.

Your shed and tools have many of us salivating!

Still, when I wore a younger man's clothes the costs of a young family meant a CV would have been out of my reach. However, if I had a shop going at that time it is very likely I could have afforded an optimised 2 HP dusty, and my guess is that this is what I would have done, providing BobL was around to design and test it.

Good luck with your CV. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy mine.

Cheerio!

John

Originally Posted by John Samuel

What surprises me is that so many want to accuse me and others who think in a similar way of banging on. In one case I was called a born again dust messiah. From what mindset does this petty sniping spring?

It comes from the mindset of one who still cannot understand when the person asking a simple question about a vacuum cleaner gets told that he needs to buy a CV cyclone, with ducting, like you for about $ 4500 when he clearly states it is in a small under stairs area and that about $ 100 is all he can afford.

Only born again Messiahs, whether they be religious or dust fanatics, do not address the question and instead bang on about their one and only solution.

Talking about choices is all very well but here was the case where the choices were made and all he needed was an answer that would suit him.

Don't forget that not many have a wife working to support their woodworking habits.


Peter.