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Thread: Harvey G700

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    i’m sorry But I don’t see the logic in the statement that just because I bought a Sawstop industrial I can also afford a Clearview. Why would everyone that bought a Sawstop Industrial have another $3000 to $4000 lying around?
    Everyone has different priorities, in fact my priority was not my health when I bought my Clearvue but to keep my shed clean and I absolutely did not want bags or filters or wear respirators. In a roundabout way this priority is the basis for good dust control, dust extraction is a band aid fix because we build dust traps for sheds which seems to be a point that never gets discussed or at least I have never seen a discussion of it here. DE would still be needed but perhaps not to the extent it is in an ideal scenario that would exist if the building was designed to allow dust to escape quickly. In the end it is a chicken and egg question and how much value the person puts on his/her health. I had a wife buy a cyclone simply because she put his health above all else and was sick and tired of listening to him coughing and wheezing all night and he would not address the dust issue at all. I have never worn a respirator when doing woodwork because I find the idea very unappealing to say the least but Lappa obviously does not. The vast majority of hobbyists, commercial workshops and Men's Sheds have an appalling idea of what constitutes good dust control, strangely the Men's Sheds around me are pretty good and that has come from Corrimal putting in an automated system that operates on demand all those years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    However there is still another issue in that really high volume extraction at dust source even with a BMH makes plenty of a hiss and there is little getting around it.
    If it's not hissing to the point of some annoyance then either you are (partially) deaf at those frequencies or your system may not be moving enough air.
    I had a forum member who operates a commercial workshop discuss this point with me. I can understand why it is a problem for people who work in an environment where there is the same constant background noise every day all day but not so much in a hobby workshop and for most the DE being used does not have the capacity to raise the noise level high enough to cause an annoyance. Of course if the gates were closed when machining was not being done that issue will go away but for big commercial operations leaving as many gates open as possible is a bonus as it tends to scrub the air and dust disturbance from just working such as putting a sheet of material on a machine can be mitigated to some extent.

    To cap it all there are still people in this country who do not believe dust constitutes a danger to their health at all and others who have absolutely no idea that dust control even exists. This is the only forum I know of that has a separate discussion area for discussion on this subject in the world, does anyone know of others? Even here I don't think the discussion covers the whole gamut of dust extraction, building design and high pressure systems needed for small tools are two areas that need addressing, ease of use is another and that comes down to automation I think especially in multi use environments such as commercial workshops and Men's Sheds.

    My apologies for the ramble BTW.
    CHRIS

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I had a forum member who operates a commercial workshop discuss this point with me. I can understand why it is a problem for people who work in an environment where there is the same constant background noise every day all day but not so much in a hobby workshop and for most the DE being used does not have the capacity to raise the noise level high enough to cause an annoyance.
    It depends on the specific nature of the woody hobby and as you said when discussing VFD noise that some even low amplitude frequencies affect different people in different ways.
    Wood turning is an example which generates a lot of dust often for a long time.
    According to dust exposure studies for specific wood working activities, turners are amongst the most exposed wood workers and as a result they do tend to leave their DCs running for long periods.
    I'm not what anyone would call a regular turner but when turning I find I do need to wear earmuffs with the DC running at 50Hz and even more so at 60Hz. Maybe it's the noise frequency rather than the amplitude because I find it more irritating than my small (~108dBA) small chainsaws.

    In comparison the occasional 30s cut with a table saw, or a few passes though a thicknesser, in a hobby shed has a much lower overall noise and dust exposure.

    Even here I don't think the discussion covers the whole gamut of dust extraction, building design and high pressure systems needed for small tools are two areas that need addressing,
    I have tested and discussed small tool dust extraction on more than one occasion going back as (eg Connecting power tools to DCs and VCs - some interesting measurements.).

    As far as fine dust goes if the tool has a fan then this extraction is limited by that fan and using higher pressure to extraction from such tools doesn't make a lot of difference compared to using low pressure extraction. In fact my measurements showed that a power tool with a fan connected to even a 2HP DC by a 2" hose extracts more fine dust than when connected to most vacs. This works particularly well on sanders and while towing around a 50 mm hose attached to the back of a power tool is not as easy as a smaller hose there are ways to make this easier.
    Chip collection on power tools like routers is another issue although I tend to use my routers in a table which makes this easier.

    What most DIYers don't realise is that in smaller sheds where occasional WW is performed (including use of power tools) and where smaller DCs are used to collect chips, forced ventilation can be a simple low cost way to manage most fine dust. The one area of WW that this doesn't apply to is wood turning.

  4. #18
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    No apologies required Chris. It’s nice to have an open discussion.

    On your first point regarding the Clearview, are you saying that it is so good that no fine dust at all will be in the workshop so a respirator is unnecessary?

    BobLs post re the aged and dust would make one think that any dust is bad.

    Also, apart from Bill Penz (who has a vested interest) has there been any definitive study to show that the Clearview does in-fact collect all dust no matter the size and is better than anything else out there at a similar or lower cost?

    Just a question that I don’t think has been raised before.

  5. #19
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    I have fixed both my VFD's, one got the fan wire cut and one got a temp sensor, no more fan noise. Building design is where the problems start, get it right and the dust problems are minimised without any fans being needed. Maybe some would say it is overkill for a hobby and some would say what a great idea.
    CHRIS

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    No apologies required Chris. It’s nice to have an open discussion.

    On your first point regarding the Clearview, are you saying that it is so good that no fine dust at all will be in the workshop so a respirator is unnecessary?.
    The dustiest thing I do in my shed is turn, when doing so my dust detectors say that at my turning work position I'm exposed to the same level of dust as is outside my shed up wind from where my DC located outside my shed. ie respirator is unnecessary.

    Down wind from where the DC is located outside the shed, for most wood activities the levels of dust emitted by the DC are usually lower than upwind - this is because the DC filters scrub all the shed air including the regular air that comes into the shed from the outside. Most of the air that comes out of my shed is cleaner than what's going in. Of course if the DC was to develop a leak then this would not be the case. This is a gamble I'm not prepared to take.

    BobLs post re the aged and dust would make one think that any dust is bad.
    This appears to be the case especially for kids and seniors. This is not the first study to show this - it has shown up in a number of other investigations. Serious epidemiological studies of large populations in 2016-17 taking into account things like socio-economic factors, the quality of local health care and diet etc has led to dust being raised as the 8th leading cause of death to the 5th leading cause of death.

    Also, apart from Bill Penz (who has a vested interest) has there been any definitive study to show that the Clearview does in-fact collect all dust no matter the size and is better than anything else out there at a similar or lower cost?
    It depends what you mean s by "all dust". If you mean "all wood dust" then the ClearVue will come close to this for just about any machinery but It would not be enough for example for a 1200 mm wide drum sander.

    If ANY DC is locate outside a shed, a shed users dust exposure is not zero but whatever it is outside the shed that comes into the shed. Only by running something like a Room air HEPA filter can dust be reduced to near zero. The closest we came to zero at Uni was in spaces which had a theoretical cleanliness of ~1 particle >0.3 microns per cubic ft. Hospital operating theatres are typically <100 particle >0.3 microns per cubic ft. Interestingly my home office is current less than this because it rained overnight damping down general dust levels in the the air and the room so still as soon if I turn on a fan it increases up to 3 times its previous level.

  7. #21
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    Bob, do you use a Clearview?

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Bob, do you use a Clearview?
    I had a 3HP SP twin bag DC outside my 42m^2 shed.

    Last year I converted the motor to a 4HP 3P plus VFD Upgrading a 3HP Single Phase DC with 4HP 3P motor and VFD

    Even before the upgrade my particle counters were showing I was getting more than enough air through and dust extracted for what I do.

    The only time I saw a slight rise in dust levels in the shed in the last 4 years was when my bro and I put 100 odd linear meters of 25 x 140 mm jarrah boards through the thicknesser.

    They key factor is no remembering to turn the DC on so 3 of my dustiest machines (wood lathe, belt sander and TS) have pressure switches on then meaning they won't run unless the DC is running and the right gates open up

    Te dustiest long term thing I usually do is turning and my DC it keeps this fine dust from under control then pretty much everything else is under control.

    I also have a 1600 CFM squirrel cage ventilators (SQV) in the metal work end of the shed and a 1200 cfm SQV on a VFD at the WW end of the shed. These move a lot of air and are relatively quiet. The one on the VFD is whisper quiet at 40Hz which is nice when using hand tools.

    These days I have more problems with metal rather than wood working dust. Metal work also has more nasty gasses to deal with. The ventilators are good at this provided I remember to turn them on.

  9. #23
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    What’s the size of the impeller on your unit BobL?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    No apologies required Chris. It’s nice to have an open discussion.

    On your first point regarding the Clearview, are you saying that it is so good that no fine dust at all will be in the workshop so a respirator is unnecessary?
    An obviously loaded question which Bob has addressed. Do you think that a respirator stops all dust particles, an equally loaded question. Let's not get into ridiculous claims and counter claims, it does no one any good in the end and only spirals downward in my experience. Yes, I am biased and have always admitted it.
    CHRIS

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    Not a loaded question Chris. It was based on your statement that one of the reasons you bought a Clearview was because you did not want to wear a respirator and based on BobLs post on dust and aged people (me bring one ),I thought it appropriate.

    Does a respirator remove all dust? Probably not, but depending on the style and filters used, probably more that a G700, Clearview or any other in that price range.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    What’s the size of the impeller on your unit BobL?
    13"

    All my extractable machines are inside 25 m^2 so relatively short ducting runs.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Not a loaded question Chris. It was based on your statement that one of the reasons you bought a Clearview was because you did not want to wear a respirator and based on BobLs post on dust and aged people (me bring one ),I thought it appropriate.

    Does a respirator remove all dust? Probably not, but depending on the style and filters used, probably more that a G700, Clearview or any other in that price range.
    But I did not buy the CV with the view of removing all the dust, that it does as a good a job as it does amazes me and I still think it is a question seeking a certain answer. It lowers the dust levels to the surrounding environment is the best way to answer the question but it is not the answer you seek. I am out of here, thanks for the discussion.
    CHRIS

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