Thread: How not to do it.

what type of DC did they have installed?

what do you find is the most common DC machine mens sheds normally have?

I had a similar experience in that I prevented my local Men's Shed from proceeding with their plans because they had developed ideas which would never have worked and wasted a lot of money in the process. The short story is that from the POV of these and similar organisations there is no one to help them and I think the best thing that could be done is the national body should create and use some sort of consultation service so that they get it right the first time.

Therein lies the problem, there are is a limited amount of knowledge within the community & business to facilitate that sort of sevice and within the DE industry in Oz there are certainly different levels of expertise and the commercial industry is mostly directed at the big end of manufacture. Men's sheds & similar fall into their own category somewhere between the commercial operaters and the hobbyist and require a somewhat different approach in the equipment required. A while ago I tried to get Clearvue to consider making 17" impeller because I think the extra flow is required for the larger installations that MS's require. My local MS is using an Asian cyclone that has a 17" impeller which they had acquired before I became involved and it works very well within a system that a hobbyist would regard s very large.

For those MS's, clubs and similar in Sydney and the surrounding areas or even for anyone considering a ducted system I can arrange for visits to see what has been done but sometime in the not too distant future we are going to arrange at least one open day to alow others see both the MS and my own very small installation in a workshop more aligned with what a hobbyist would expect. Aside from that if anyone at any time wants to have a look at either or both contact me I will be more that happy to arrange it.

If any Men's Shed in the Sydney or near areas needs help and advice please feel free to contact me and I am sure the same goes for Bob in Perth.

Originally Posted by BobL

...When I asked who had installed it they said it was a local plumber - I guess there's really no one else to call on to do this sort of thing in most regional areas....

I don't think that this is just a regional isue, Bob.

In my view, most people think of dust removal as a housekeeping issue - getting rid of the visible sawdust - and equate a dust extraction system to a large domestic vacuum cleaner. Zero or minimal thought is given to the health issues from the nearly invisible dust, the dangerous stuff. Only later, when the shed acquires the fine patina of very fine dust do they start thinking that the dusty could be better. Rarely do they think that they have a potential health time bomb.

The answer, I think, is education. Just raising consciousness of the issue. Your writing here have been very helpful to many members, as, in a wider perspective was Bill Pentz. I do not know whether the MS movement has a magazine or website or forum that could be used to broadcast a similar message. Compulsion rarely works.

Originally Posted by havabeer69

what type of DC did they have installed?

They have a 5HP twin bag machine.

what do you find is the most common DC machine mens sheds normally have?

This is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question as it varies widely.

My email communications list show I have visited at least 25 Mens sheds (I have also visited more than 30 DIY sheds but I ill not count those here).
The following about Mens Sheds DC systems is from memory - I would have to check my notes to get the numbers more precisely.

- about half a dozen sheds (both large and small) were using only vacs, generic 2 HP or less DCs that they tow around inside the shed and connect up to machines as needed.
- about half a dozen sheds sheds had mixes of different smaller machines eg vacs 2 or 3, 3HP Machines and maybe 1-2 2HP, again mostly used inside the shed.
- 4 Sheds I have consulted to are now using ClearVue Maxs.
- about half a dozen large sheds are using 5+ HP machines, all now outside their sheds.
- 3 sheds are using large high end Felders, one uses a large Micron Air cyclone.

For about half the sheds the DC itself is usually not the problem
The main issues are usually
- location of the DCs
- poor ducting size/design/layout
- machine port issues
- failure to open/close blast gates.

I've been visiting mens sheds for about 5 years and on the positive side I am seeing
- most sheds are moving their DCs outside their sheds
- many are upgrading to larger DCs
- some effort is being made to address ducting size and layout.
Not much is being done about machine port sizes.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

I don't think that this is just a regional isue, Bob.

In my view, most people think of dust removal as a housekeeping issue - getting rid of the visible sawdust - and equate a dust extraction system to a large domestic vacuum cleaner. Zero or minimal thought is given to the health issues from the nearly invisible dust, the dangerous stuff. Only later, when the shed acquires the fine patina of very fine dust do they start thinking that the dusty could be better. Rarely do they think that they have a potential health time bomb.

The answer, I think, is education. Just raising consciousness of the issue. Your writing here have been very helpful to many members, as, in a wider perspective was Bill Pentz. I do not know whether the MS movement has a magazine or website or forum that could be used to broadcast a similar message. Compulsion rarely works.

Graeme
Personally, I think the real "problem" is one of attitude among the members of Men's Sheds.
Men's Sheds do not have "paid employees", they only have volunteers. Therefore they are not seen or considered to be "workplaces". Because they are not "workplaces", health and safety "requirements" do not apply. The better run sheds will voluntarily adopt appropriate OH&S practices. The not so well run ones will just allow the fine dust to accumulate and, if you are lucky, will periodically have a shed clean using a leaky vacuum cleaner.

Need I go on?



To some extent it's a bit like the current "siliceous epidemic" associated with the use of man made stone products.

Originally Posted by ian

Personally, I think the real "problem" is one of attitude among the members of Men's Sheds.

You might be right, Bob, but I suspect that the problem is even more basic than that. Many/most members do not realise that they have a problem.

That wasn’t me quoted above.

I honestly don’t think the problem is always as bad as it seems. The layer of fine dust over everything turns out to be a limited indicator as to what is in the air. If a big shed has a big roller door or 2 open and there’s even a slight breeze I have rarely measure anything close to high levels of wood dust present. The opposite is usually the case when members are working inside smallworking spaces like a small room inside a big room, most men’s sheds are not production shops thichnessing 100’s of meters of boards or mass producing MDF carcasses.

I have yet to measure any dust levels in a men’s shed that I thought “wow - this is really dangerous!”. on average I estimate that long term exposure for most members would approximate that of woodwork teachers who have the lowest exposures of wood working professionals. DIY folks (especially turners) in small sheds with poor or no ventilation/extraction will usually end up with much higher exposures than men’s aged members.

All of this is not to say wood dust should not be taken seriously and if something is to be done it might as well be done as efficiently as possible.