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  1. #16
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    I had no experience of them, so I measured the window, and got two fans to fill the hole. I’m thinking I might move one to the room I’m planning to use for my metalwork lathe and just block off the rest of the window. They were advertised as being made by a local company, but they’re Chinese and not that well made. They do suck air though. You can feel the wind when you stand in the doorway on the other end of the room.

    I’d like to add some sort of proper hood for them, but have no idea how at this stage, so I knocked up a quick and dirty frame to get a feel for how well they work.
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  3. #17
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    They look alright to me and good job on the knock up frame.
    You should look to covering that electrical junction up with some sort of a cover.
    The reason they make a lot of noise is because they are axial fans. Axials can be quieter but these are usually lower revving and compensate by having aerodynamically shaped and larger diameter blades. As a result they take up more space.

    As a general rule the noisiest to quietest fans are as follows.

    Axial fans as described above. They are usually cheap because they are cheap to make
    Open Impeller fans as used on DCs that wont block up when moving things like sawdust - the noise varies depending on vane size, shape and orientation
    Closed impeller fans as used by the "Gro yer own" industry.
    Squirrel cage fans are the quietest and usually the most expensive.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    You should look to covering that electrical junction up with some sort of a cover.
    That’s on the to do list, as is a mesh over the back to stop fingers getting in accidentally, especially as the sucking end of a fan is far more dangerous that the blowing end. The wiring was done quick and dirty because you can’t mount them without a quick test run

  5. #19
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    I finally went past the electrical place this morning, and am much happier with the wiring now. I can operate either or both of the fans now.
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  6. #20
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    I have been down the path of how to build a cost effect DE system for a DIYer. The conclusions I came to reading all the knowledgeable posts on this site:

    1. DE has to be outside.

    This allows massive cost savings as it means you really only need to focus on enough HP/Suction to for 5" or 6" ducts (minimum necessary). Savings come from being less worried about size of machine, noise and filter bag/pleats. Also means that you don't really need a cyclone (expensive in NZ!)

    2. Use wall fans for fine dust

    BobL in particular raised my awareness to the perils of fine dust. This became a focus of my design. With the savings from placing DE outside, I am going to spend money on getting a good wall fan (likely squirrel cage), possible 2x. Hopefully if you can get your DE outside you likely have the ability to have a wall fan.

    Constraints

    The key constraint is living with the high level of air replacement in your shop from the DE and wall fan. You also need to manage external noise, some fine dust, going outside to empty DE bag, building external enclosure, etc.

    Cost saving

    An unmodified 2HP is the cheapest and simplest option. this can only really handle 5" duct. I have chosen to run with this as an interim measure as my machines only have 5" ports anyway and do not want to get the angle grinder out just yet. If you want to set up long term then go modified 2HP and 6" or 3Hp and 6".

    My fan(s) may well cost me more that the DE as I worry more about fine dust. The downside for me is that I will not have the suction to grab as much dust at machine as others. However, with a wall fan, I will pick up the dangerous stuff better than others. Basically i will require vacuuming up the semi fine dust more often as key downside ... but this will save me LOTS of money.

    Hopefully this makes sense. In a rush sorry.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    No short cuts with dust collection I'm afraid.
    Sorry .... AHH .... BUNKUM ..... shortcuts are made in dust extraction every day, in both home workshops and in industry.

    BobL has been banging on about pretty much unachievable targets for years.

    In formally regulated industry we speak of "risk managment and risk assessment" ... both of these practices enshrine the paretto principle in law and practice.

    It's all about identifying risks and using multiple methods to reduce them to an acceptable level.

    Yes there is most definitely a diminishing return for the amount of effort and money invested in dust extraction and dust managment.

    There are dramatic results when we make the first step from letting the dust, fly where it will and land where it falls.
    There are substantial improvements when we improve our dust extraction, by employing more efficient filters, better flowing ducts and pick ups on our machines that capture more dust.
    There are very good improvments when we make further improvements to our systems like moving our extractors outside the work space and improving ventilation.
    BUT any further improvements to achieve the sorts of the results that BobL bangs on about are much harder and more expensive to achieve and when the dust capture at source remains imperfect ... pretty much futile.

    SO Sunnycoaster, ANY improvement is worthwhile.

    AND without going to rediculous ends you can do better.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Squirrel cage fans are the quietest and usually the most expensive.
    Yep, but a hell of a lot of them get junked by the airconditioning guys. Talk to some of your locals.

  9. #23
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    Jun 2005
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    Helensburgh
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejw1234567890 View Post
    I have been down the path of how to build a cost effect DE system for a DIYer. The conclusions I came to reading all the knowledgeable posts on this site:

    1. DE has to be outside.

    This allows massive cost savings as it means you really only need to focus on enough HP/Suction to for 5" or 6" ducts (minimum necessary). Savings come from being less worried about size of machine, noise and filter bag/pleats. Also means that you don't really need a cyclone (expensive in NZ!)

    2. Use wall fans for fine dust

    BobL in particular raised my awareness to the perils of fine dust. This became a focus of my design. With the savings from placing DE outside, I am going to spend money on getting a good wall fan (likely squirrel cage), possible 2x. Hopefully if you can get your DE outside you likely have the ability to have a wall fan.

    Constraints

    The key constraint is living with the high level of air replacement in your shop from the DE and wall fan. You also need to manage external noise, some fine dust, going outside to empty DE bag, building external enclosure, etc.

    Cost saving

    An unmodified 2HP is the cheapest and simplest option. this can only really handle 5" duct. I have chosen to run with this as an interim measure as my machines only have 5" ports anyway and do not want to get the angle grinder out just yet. If you want to set up long term then go modified 2HP and 6" or 3Hp and 6".

    My fan(s) may well cost me more that the DE as I worry more about fine dust. The downside for me is that I will not have the suction to grab as much dust at machine as others. However, with a wall fan, I will pick up the dangerous stuff better than others. Basically i will require vacuuming up the semi fine dust more often as key downside ... but this will save me LOTS of money.

    Hopefully this makes sense. In a rush sorry.
    The absolute best thing anyone can do is build a shed that is not a dust trap and let the dust freely escape the shed. You still need dust collection of course but not to the same extent.

  10. #24
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    I admit I skimmed this thread, but I haven’t seen anyone mention a dust mask.

    My 90/10 solution is a cheap 2Hp DE on castors with 4” flexible ducting. I roll the DE outside and close the roller door on the duct. That takes care of the heavy sawdust and some of the fine stuff. A (proper) dust mask protects me from the fine stuff that the DE misses.

    And yes, I’m well aware some of the fine dust is drawn back through the gap between the roller door and the floor.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    I admit I skimmed this thread, but I haven’t seen anyone mention a dust mask. My 90/10 solution is a cheap 2Hp DE on castors with 4” flexible ducting. I roll the DE outside and close the roller door on the duct. That takes care of the heavy sawdust and some of the fine stuff. A (proper) dust mask protects me from the fine stuff that the DE misses. And yes, I’m well aware some of the fine dust is drawn back through the gap between the roller door and the floor.
    What's a proper dust mask?

  12. #26
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    Mobyturns is offline In An Instant Your Life Can Change Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundman View Post
    In formally regulated industry we speak of "risk managment and risk assessment" ... both of these practices enshrine the paretto principle in law and practice.

    It's all about identifying risks and using multiple methods to reduce them to an acceptable level.

    Yes there is most definitely a diminishing return for the amount of effort and money invested in dust extraction and dust managment.

    SO Sunnycoaster, ANY improvement is worthwhile.
    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    That takes care of the heavy sawdust and some of the fine stuff. A (proper) dust mask protects me from the fine stuff that the DE misses.

    And yes, I’m well aware some of the fine dust is drawn back through the gap between the roller door and the floor.

    I agree any improvement is worthwhile. I’m also struggling with a cost-effective solution to capture fine dusts!

    Almost all woodies have little skill or the appropriate knowledge and training to make informed risk assessments about hazards. They seriously underestimate the short and long-term risk associated with exposureto hazards that create little more than minor irritation or annoyance in the present.

    Excessive dust and noise levels are prime culprits for injuries associated with long term exposure. No exposure duration is considered“safe” for some hazards. Even short duration exposure to asbestos dust has been linked to catastrophic health outcomes. Whilst other hazards have considerable variations in outcomes for individuals. Perhaps exposure to fine wood dust is considered by non-smokers to be a greater risk than by smokers?

    The problem with using administrative controls and personal protection equipment (PPE) to reduce residual risk with fine dust is that the hazard is still present long after the machines stop operating and the dust mask is removed. Fine dust settled out on workshop surfaces can become ambient fine dust with minimal disturbance.

    The solution is the whole gambit approach as BobL has so clearly highlighted in his “attack” list.

    Only the owner / operator / user of machinery associated with “Woodie” hobbies can decide what risk level is acceptable to them & their family.

    We generally are not saddled with duties to workers underworkplace health and safety legislation but may well have a general common law duty of care to others particularly neighbours and more direct control under local laws and environmental legislation to “not endanger the health of others” or their quality of life with noise and dust nuisances.

    I have strong reservations about venting fine wood dust directlyinto the atmosphere in residential areas.
    Mobyturns

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    What's a proper dust mask?
    You know the answer to that question better than anybody on this forum, so I’m not biting. And a ‘proper’ dust mask is MUCH cheaper AND more effective at protecting your lungs than a ‘proper’ dust extraction system.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    The problem with using administrative controls and personal protection equipment (PPE) to reduce residual risk with fine dust is that the hazard is still present long after the machines stop operating and the dust mask is removed.
    OK, so don’t remove the mask.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    OK, so don’t remove the mask.
    What sort of mask?

  16. #30
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    As I said, a proper one.

    I get it, you’re OCD about dust. The OP wanted advice on a “90/10” dust solution. I gave mine. If you want to play silly games about what constitutes a proper dust mask, knock yourself out. I’ve got more interesting things to do with my time.

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