Thread: Idiots guide to extraction - Is there a 90/10 solution (performance Vs effort)

My dream shed is set on a slab that the roof covers completely. The long side walls are broken up into smaller sections and either hinge outwards or work like bifold doors and open up so it becomes a shed with two fixed walls and open down each long side as weather permits. I actually don't think it would be stupidly expensive to build either but as I am never going to move and mine is 3 metres up in the air and already built I won't be doing it.

Originally Posted by jack620

Originally Posted by aldav

Stop making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Best comment so far on this thread.

The problem with that statement is that dust extraction actually is complicated.

To offer simplistic advice without any detail whatsoever is pointless - anyone can go out and buy a generic extractor, hook it up to an inefficient port using ducting that cannot provide sufficient airflow, and he will be impressed by the difference it has made, all the while not being aware that the absolute dust levels are still high enough to be unhealthy.

I fully support the approach that doing something is better than doing nothing, but that is a choice the individual concerned should be making for himself, based on his own health and risk profile. But to do that he needs to know what the risks are, and when it comes to offering advice to people, I definitely favour specific, fact based advice over anecdotal evidence. This is especially true when a significant proportion of the danger comes from invisible dust which the anecdotal observer will not even be aware of.

To dumb down the advice offered helps no one, least of all the OP. If the actual advice being offered bothers you, then by all means disagree, but in that case why not disagree by means of producing some facts and figures? It makes your point so much more useful. And if it’s the level of detail of the advice offered that bothers you, then don’t read it. On the other hand, if you’re going to participate and offer criticism, then I’d say the least you can do is read the thread first and apply your mind to the arguments either way.

Originally Posted by jack620

A mask with the best filters money can by is totally useless if there are gaps between it and the wearer's face.

As is a mask that fits perfectly which has inadequate filters.

Originally Posted by jack620

I measure the performance of a mask based on its fit, comfort, ability to filter dust, and compatibility with my safety glasses and hearing protection.

Do you actually measure its performance or are you judging it by what you can observe?

Originally Posted by jack620

I do know that it does a much better job at keeping dust out of my lungs than my DE and it was quite a bit cheaper. Which was my whole point.

Have you actually measured this? What method and equipment did you use? While I don’t disagree that it’s almost certainly better than your DE, I’ll go out on a limb and say that using your DE (as you descibed it earlier) as the point of comparison is not setting the bar all that high.

Originally Posted by Colin62

The problem with that statement is that dust extraction actually is complicated.

I visit and provide advice to mens sheds, WW clubs and DIyers about wood dust. Most of these sites are not production houses and the extent to which these sheds, clubs and DIYers can understand the complexity of dust is limited so I usually keep my recommendations as simple as I can with lots of recommendations for maximising the use of ventilation and outside spaces.

But I have to be careful because really dumbing it all down leads to short cuts and the couple of times that I have done this has generally lead to poor implementations of dust control. Even when I dumb it down many of the people on the end of my advice say "Wow. . . it's complicated". After working in dust research for more than 30 years it's more complicated and difficult to pin down than I post in these forums.

One thing I never recommend for mens shed, club members and DIYers is wearing masks. If folks want to wear a mask on top of what I advise, that's for them decide. The reason I don't recommend masks to someone I don't know personally is that I know that always wearing a mask all the time while working in a shed is near impossible. A few woodies are really good at wearing a mask all the time, but generally I would say most are not, and some (like me) find wearing masks a major annoyance, especially when there are usually other solutions that do not require it. All this is why advising machinery and/or power tools users working in a shed just wear masks as a sole/general dust solution is usually poor advice

Along similar lines - no matter how good they are, DCs that are not running or the wrong blast gates are open are useless. Even for someone supposedly as OCD as myself about dust, I didn't always remembering to turn on the DC or have the right gates open. This is why I recommend the the use of simple pressure switches on machinery - no DC running or no gates open, machine won't start.

This is all standard OHS problem solving - use engineering solutions to solve the problem before jumping to PPE.
PPE is the measure of last resort AFTER all other avenues have been exhausted eg when working off site and nowhere near a DC.

It all happens all in the flurry of WW activity in a DIY shed
I just need to make this one cut so either I forget or I won't bother with the DC/mask
Oops that's too ragged a cut or the wrong size, I'll cut another.
While I'm at it I will cut two.
Quick touch up on the belt sander.
ETC
Before you know it there's dust everywhere.

Originally Posted by Colin62

Do you actually measure its performance or are you judging it by what you can observe?

Of course not. What home woodworker has the equipment to measure the performance of a dust mask?

Originally Posted by Colin62

Have you actually measured this?

Again no. I'm happy to take the Sundstrom's word that their filters are rated to P3. That coupled with the knowledge that the mask is a good fit (see this vid at 2:40 for checking fit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEtzHJJgmrw) makes me very confident in its performance.

Originally Posted by Colin62

What method and equipment did you use?

The only piece of equipment I have for detecting fine dust is my nose. When I remove the mask the smell of wood dust is obvious. That's good enough for me. What method do you use?

Originally Posted by BobL

One thing I never recommend for mens shed, club members and DIYers is wearing masks.

I would suggest that advice is bordering on reckless.

Originally Posted by BobL

All this is why advising machinery and/or power tools users working in a shed just wear masks as a sole/general dust solution is usually poor advice.

Who recommended wearing a dust mask as the sole/general solution? Certainly not me. I specifically recommended a dust mask in addition to a DE.

Originally Posted by BobL

Even for someone supposedly as OCD as myself about dust, I didn't always remembering to turn on the DC or have the right gates open.

Which is an excellent argument in favour of dust masks (in addition to a DE).

Guy’s, Sunnycoaster (the OP, remember him?) is gone. The contents of his two contributions to the thread, posts #1 and #9, and the title he chose for the thread in the first place indicate to me that he has a better than basic understanding of the dust extraction conundrum and that he has done some study of the more informative threads on the forum. He may still be working on his personal solution to the dust problem, but he’s long gone from here.

I can’t understand why it’s not possible for a member to put a five sentence post on here that encapsulates his response to the problem without being subjected to a sustained attack. That's right, I'm not talking about myself. You surround him and poke him with sticks, what’s going on?

If a member quotes another in their post and you then want to quote both those posts, you have to go back to the original post to ensure you’ve got the full meaning of what the original poster was saying. Colin if you go back to post #38 you will see that nobody was saying that dust extraction is not more complicated than it initially seems to be. I was commenting on BobL’s suggestion of wearing a positive pressure full face dust mask.

Why can’t members post in the dust extraction sub-forum without being attacked by the dust Nazis?

Jack regarding the video part about fit test. That isn’t a proper fit test. It is an in use check to ensure a properly fitted mask is on and working correctly.

I was for a time certified to fit test masks when I worked. Eventually the company had the supplier do it so the best fitting mask from a whole range of products and several brands to suit the individual was provided.

In a situation like that the mask is put on and adjusted. Then a hood was placed over the person and a few drops of a scent, banana oil when I did them, put inside the hood. They moved their face as they would when talking, twitching, etc., and if they couldn’t detect any odour they were certified to use the mask for 6 months unless it was damaged or something happened to change their face. Teeth pulled, weight gain/ loss etc.

Pete

DE threads on here become heated just like sharpening threads in other places. I don't post much here anymore for a few reasons and the major one is people don't want to listen, they want to advance their pet theories for right or wrong without actually listening to what is being said and being in a lot of cases totally dismissive of other peoples POV and yes that has happened to me so I left. This sub forum is the single best dust extraction knowledge base on the planet bar none but it does have issues when a different POV is advanced and the poster being summarily dismissed in most cases. Explain why it is wrong in your experience and walk away and if the poster does not agree then that is his or her problem. We have seen it in the past with some very notable instances that those who advance radical approaches (I can think of at least two) eventually find that they don't work. When I introduced Clearvue to this country I was told that it was not necessary and it was implied that it was a waste of money. I think we have now gotten over that little hurdle as evidenced by it constantly being promoted here as the ultimate best solution to the problem. I suppose some of the above seems contradictory but it is hard to explain from my POV.

Yes DE can be complicated but in my actual experience of selling the stuff I took a simplistic view in explaining what it could do for the woodworker and the simplest way to get a good return on his very considerable investment without months of installation. If it becomes too hard then people are going to baulk on taking that step they need to. The finessing of the system can come later but the plan was always to get it in at minimal cost and effort so that the customer could see for himself what effect a clean workshop had on his working conditions. I had one customer known to this forum who thought he understood that a clean workshop would be better but by his own admission never envisaged how much effect it actually made to his work shop and his enjoyment of his hobby and continues to sing the praises of good DE to this day.

Thanks for listening and rant mode off.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

If it becomes too hard then people are going to baulk on taking that step they need to.

I think that point is often lost on this forum. I often see people start a thread looking for advice on their setup. They typically outline their proposed solution. E.g. "I'm planning on doing A, B & C." They then get told "no that won't work, you need to do D, E, F & G." I suspect they often go away disillusioned. How many times have you read on this forum that 4" ducting is a waste of time and you need a minimum of 6" ducting? Well I have 4" ducting on my el-cheapo DE and it collects a lot of sawdust. I'm sure a heck of a lot of fine dust escapes into the air, but I'm happy for my DE to suck up the heavy stuff and my mask to stop the fine stuff getting into my lungs. Horses for courses.

Originally Posted by jack620

As I said, a proper one.

I get it, you’re OCD about dust. The OP wanted advice on a “90/10” dust solution. I gave mine. If you want to play silly games about what constitutes a proper dust mask, knock yourself out. I’ve got more interesting things to do with my time.

While some might think this is clever repartee there must be hundreds on this forum who would like to know what a "proper" dusk mask is.

It's already been answered, refer post #54.

Originally Posted by safari

While some might think this is clever repartee there must be hundreds on this forum who would like to know what a "proper" dusk mask is.

Do your own research and decide for yourself. I've already told you what works for me. I wouldn't presume to tell you what will work for you.

On the matter of dust masks ...... there is a great variation in price and effectivness ....... but where there is dust .... any mask is better than none. ...... and a reasonably priced better than cheap and nasty disposable mask will dramatically reduce the risks.

very few of us will cough up several hundred dollars for a powered full face dust protection system.

But many of us will spend an extra dollar to get a disposable mask that is more effective than a single strap "nusance mask".

Most of the reasonable quality, Australian standard marked, disposable masks will do a reasonable job, for the modest dust risks we encounter in a reasonably managed woodworking shop .... you will be looking at a mask with two straps, a formable nose piece and a bit of body in the filter material ........ spend an extra buck or so per mask and you get an exhalation valve.

AND these masks are comfortable enough to within reason be worn all day ..... yes and I wear glasses.

When I was young I wore a beard in winter most years ....... that stopped when it was necessary for me to wear some sort of breathing protection nearly every week ...... and yes like most civilised men I shave most mornings, and most masks will still be sealing effectivly at the end of the working day.

Argue all you like ....... but any protection measure is better than none, and reasonable protection can be had for a modest cost and with tolerable discomfort.

cheers