Thread: Jet 3HP Cyclone Dusty

Hi mate,

No experience with the Jet. It looks pretty similar to the Carba-tec and Baleigh Cyclones. Again, no direct experience, but from an analytical point of view, there are a few things I don't like; 1. Short cyclone design, so possibly not great separation efficiency. 2. Only a 1 Micron pleated filter - not really good enough (not for my lungs anyway) and may be a further indication of poor separation from the cyclone as a finer filter may clog too quickly. 3. It will run at 50Hz here so you will lose at least 17% of the airflow and 36% of the max static pressure (but please don't take the quoted specs at face value! I'd expect around 800 CFM from this machine tops with 6" ducting in an average workshop setup based on my experience). 4. 8.9" of water column max static pressure is fairly poor and may be a typo? 5. You may need a VFD to run the motor at 60Hz (assuming it is a 3 phase motor).

However, it does look like a decent build quality and the mobile castor frame looks good.

I looked at nearly everything available before I chose a Clearvue and it's what I'd recommend if you are planning a permanent, ducted, setup and have the space. The only other stuff that looks as good is the Oneida Cyclones and they aren't available here as far as I know. I don't think it would be cost effective to bring them over.

Thanks for the reply!

I think the Jet is only a single phase motor, I was looking at the clearvue unit and the thing that I am worried about is the noise level and the physical size (height) of the unit.

Did you looks into any other cyclones available here that stacked up to the clearvue? My other option I was looking at was the 3HP timbercon unit but again the size of it could be an issue.

Joel

Originally Posted by jms_8087

Thanks for the reply!

I think the Jet is only a single phase motor, I was looking at the clearvue unit and the thing that I am worried about is the noise level and the physical size (height) of the unit.

Did you looks into any other cyclones available here that stacked up to the clearvue? My other option I was looking at was the 3HP timbercon unit but again the size of it could be an issue.

Joel

For me, it came down to the fundamentals. You want; 1. Good airflow at a reasonable static pressure, 2. Great filtration (Hepa / Merv 14/15+) or vent outside - in either case you want an efficient cyclone that will separate as much and as fine a dust as possible, so that you aren't clogging your fine filter or pumping visible dust outside, you also want a very large filter area so as not to create too much back-pressure.

For good airflow, given that impeller design is fairly mature, I don't believe there are huge differences in design. You want simply want a large 15+ inch impeller. You'll probably need more than 3 HP to run a 15 or 16" impeller for an efficient ducting setup. My Clearvue with 16" impeller needs about 4.5 HP at 60Hz. If you are running at 50 Hz a 3 HP motor should be fine, probably even for a 16" impeller.

If you are not going to vent outside you want to be running the highest quality filters possible. Ideally you want a HEPA filter or at least a filter with a high Merv rating. The issue here is that a fine filter will create a lot of back pressure per m^2 of filter area so you need a lot of filter area to lower the pressure loss. Furthermore, a fine filter will clog very easily if the cyclone is not separating a lot of the dust. Longer cyclones are supposed to do a better job of separating the dust all other things being equal, and you also want the cyclone to have a neutral vane to assist with separating efficiency. To me, i am immediately suspect of a cyclones separation efficiency when it is supplied with a coarse filter for this reason. Also, given the amount of bad specs out there, I wouldn't trust the specs on a filter unless it has a rating form an independent body such as HEPA or Merv. If you are venting outside, then you also don't want to be pumping out a lot of dust into your yard / your neighbours yard.

It also seems like most impellers are designed in the states to operate well at 60Hz so a VFD setup is very beneficial as it is hard to find a system with a large enough impeller to get good flow at 50 Hz otherwise.

For me, given that criteria only the Oneida and Clearvue cyclones seem to tick the boxes. I didn't look at the cost of importing an Oneida (I assume very high shipping etc) so I bought a Clearvue. Is it perfect? No. But I still believe it's the only Cyclone available that has all of the fundamental design features required.

Noise. It is very noisy if you don't do anything to lower the noise. I vented mine outside and after running some HVAC ducting (double wrapped) as the exhaust ducting and wrapping the impeller housing in some sound attenuating material it is far less noisy than my old 2HP unit and no more noisy than my other machines in the shop. It isn't difficult to lower the noise levels. There is a bit of work involved to put it together etc but most of the work is in running the ducting anyway (same for any machine) and once you are done it's one of those situations where the work/cost is forgotten and you have no regrets because the system works very well. I hate skimping on something (in either cost or effort) and then feeling like I want to upgrade later.

Good luck with your decision making. I'm an engineer and understand a fair bit of the theory, but I'm no expert so take my advice as simply opinion and make your own decision / do your own research. Just remember, don't look at spec sheets for airflow data. Better to look at the impeller size as the comparative guide for performance. Then remember that more airflow = more HP required, so a 3 HP system will be limited to probably around 1000 CFM real airflow; less at 60 Hz. My Clearvue pulls 4.5 HP and gets about 1000 CFM at my machines; this is heaps and it couldn't flow any more as it would burn out the 5 HP motor. Since there is no such thing as magic, any comparable system running a 16 inch impeller will not flow any more air than this in my ducting system; regardless of the crazy claims / spec sheets.

Originally Posted by DomAU

For me, it came down to the fundamentals. You want; 1. Good airflow at a reasonable static pressure, 2. Great filtration (Hepa / Merv 14/15+) or vent outside - in either case you want an efficient cyclone that will separate as much and as fine a dust as possible, so that you aren't clogging your fine filter or pumping visible dust outside, you also want a very large filter area so as not to create too much back-pressure.

For good airflow, given that impeller design is fairly mature, I don't believe there are huge differences in design. You want simply want a large 15+ inch impeller. You'll probably need more than 3 HP to run a 15 or 16" impeller for an efficient ducting setup. My Clearvue with 16" impeller needs about 4.5 HP at 60Hz. If you are running at 50 Hz a 3 HP motor should be fine, probably even for a 16" impeller.

If you are not going to vent outside you want to be running the highest quality filters possible. Ideally you want a HEPA filter or at least a filter with a high Merv rating. The issue here is that a fine filter will create a lot of back pressure per m^2 of filter area so you need a lot of filter area to lower the pressure loss. Furthermore, a fine filter will clog very easily if the cyclone is not separating a lot of the dust. Longer cyclones are supposed to do a better job of separating the dust all other things being equal, and you also want the cyclone to have a neutral vane to assist with separating efficiency. To me, i am immediately suspect of a cyclones separation efficiency when it is supplied with a coarse filter for this reason. Also, given the amount of bad specs out there, I wouldn't trust the specs on a filter unless it has a rating form an independent body such as HEPA or Merv. If you are venting outside, then you also don't want to be pumping out a lot of dust into your yard / your neighbours yard.

It also seems like most impellers are designed in the states to operate well at 60Hz so a VFD setup is very beneficial as it is hard to find a system with a large enough impeller to get good flow at 50 Hz otherwise.

For me, given that criteria only the Oneida and Clearvue cyclones seem to tick the boxes. I didn't look at the cost of importing an Oneida (I assume very high shipping etc) so I bought a Clearvue. Is it perfect? No. But I still believe it's the only Cyclone available that has all of the fundamental design features required.

Noise. It is very noisy if you don't do anything to lower the noise. I vented mine outside and after running some HVAC ducting (double wrapped) as the exhaust ducting and wrapping the impeller housing in some sound attenuating material it is far less noisy than my old 2HP unit and no more noisy than my other machines in the shop. It isn't difficult to lower the noise levels. There is a bit of work involved to put it together etc but most of the work is in running the ducting anyway (same for any machine) and once you are done it's one of those situations where the work/cost is forgotten and you have no regrets because the system works very well. I hate skimping on something (in either cost or effort) and then feeling like I want to upgrade later.

Good luck with your decision making. I'm an engineer and understand a fair bit of the theory, but I'm no expert so take my advice as simply opinion and make your own decision / do your own research. Just remember, don't look at spec sheets for airflow data. Better to look at the impeller size as the comparative guide for performance. Then remember that more airflow = more HP required, so a 3 HP system will be limited to probably around 1000 CFM real airflow; less at 60 Hz. My Clearvue pulls 4.5 HP and gets about 1000 CFM at my machines; this is heaps and it couldn't flow any more as it would burn out the 5 HP motor. Since there is no such thing as magic, any comparable system running a 16 inch impeller will not flow any more air than this in my ducting system; regardless of the crazy claims / spec sheets.

Thanks for the reply some helpful points there!

I have sound proofed my shed which allows me to run any of my machines at any time of the night/day and my neighbors never hear anything if I was to vent outside does the noise of the machine travel outside or is it more
airflow that can be heard with the main noise inside still?

For my setup it's just rushing air noise outside, very quiet, no tonal noise. Others have reported outside noise but I'm not sure how they are achieving this. Maybe noisy if you use hard ducting for the exhaust. Hvac r2.5 ducting going into a China man's hat in the roof did the job for me. No noise.

So today i went out to Tullamarine to Baileigh Industries and had a look at their 3 HP cyclone (This One) ... I felt that the system should have had more suction than it did being that it has a 15" impeller one the other hand I was really surprised how quiet the unit was when running which brings me to my next question if someone can answer. If I was to purchase this unit and install a 5Hp 220v 3 Phase motor and a VFD to run it at 60Hz do you think this would offer up some large improvements?

Theoretically the cyclone should be sized to the impeller/motor. Putting a bigger one on the smaller cyclone may pull the dust through as the air won't slow enough to allow the particles to drop out of the airstream. The other thing to consider is that the cost of retrofitting the bigger unit may end up costing close to what a 5hp setup would if you went straight to it.

Pete
Always ready to sit corrected if I'm wrong.

Given that the Baileigh is sold in the US with a 3HP motor running at 60 Hz, I don't think you have to worry about the cyclone not being sized appropriately for the impeller running at 60Hz. Theoretically, an increase of 20% rotational velocity (50 to 60 Hz) would get you 20% more airflow as well as 44% more pressure (will help if you have a longer / more restrictive duct setup) and will draw 70% more power.

You can buy a Teco motor locally. They sell a 4 HP 3PH unit that is actually rated for closer to 5 HP when run in three phase when you look at the specs. It's only about $250-. You can get a good VFD for around $400-500 from Clearvue Australia that is rated at 4kW (you want some headroom). Then of course you may need to do some mods to fit the motor flange to your Baileigh impeller housing and also possibly have to buy / have made a key to hold the impeller to the motor output shaft (I'd be checking this out first as you may have some difficulty depending on the size). Maybe find out what motor Baileigh Australia fit to the unit so that you can check the dimensions / specs and source an appropriate alternative. Not sure if the cost / effort is worth it; that's up to you.

All that said, I'd still be looking at plumbing this unit outside, as I wouldn't be confident in the supplied filters (1 micron manufacturer rating only - this isn't great).

My friend was looking at this unit but I think there are a few downsides. If money isn't the issue I'd bite the bullet and go Clearvue. I realise they are expensive so may not be an option. But after VFD and motor you'd be up around/over $3000- for the Baileigh in any case.

I would try to view a Balleigh working and find out how good the dust separation is. I think the cone length is way too short for efficient separation. A friend has a Carbatec cyclone which looks a very similar design and he has found separation to be very poor.

Got a quote on two different Baileigh units yesterday - boy they would want to be good for the price

Originally Posted by Lappa

Got a quote on two different Baileigh units yesterday - boy they would want to be good for the price

And yet, still 20% cheaper than the Carbatec unit which looks like the same machine! Both not worth it in my personal opinion.

Originally Posted by DomAU

And yet, still 20% cheaper than the Carbatec unit which looks like the same machine! Both not worth it in my personal opinion.

You must get special pricing from Baileigh

Originally Posted by Lappa

You must get special pricing from Baileigh

Really?! My friend was quoted $2600 for the 3hp baileigh cyclone. With the poor filter, short cyclone and running at 50Hz I still thought that it wasn't worth it. But to be honest I personally believe that long term health is not something that sh I uld be traded off against cost if you have the financial means tof afford better.

For me, I was also weighing up cost when looking for a cyclone and then looked around my garage at the thousands of dollars of machinery and tools and thought; if I can afford all of these toys I can afford to buy the best to look after my lungs / health.

When I looked at the Carbatec 2 stage 3 hPa cyclone unit, it was $3699. The equivalent Baileigh was $3495 US ($4480AU)

As for the Baileigh DC2100c or DC1450c (both single stage filtration), I couldn't see an equivalent on Carbatec's site - the cyclone units were all 2 stage filtration.