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  1. #1
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    Jul 2018
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    Default Into the Lions DEN

    Hi

    I am a member of the WoodCraftGuild of the ACT. We have > 400 members, and workshops sized to cater for demand. Our dust control is terrible, and I plan to do something about it.

    Basically our workshop is divided into a Lathe Room where 11 Lathes can all be running simultaneously in their individual booths, and a Main_Workshop. The Main_Workshop has a sawstop tablesaw, 12" jointer, 15" thicknesser, 20" Wadkin Bandsaw, hammerC3, 48" DrumSander and Mitre saw stations which should all be serviced by our main outside dust extractor. We have a secondary line from a different outside extractor which services 2x Laguna 14Bx Bandsaws, a 16/32 drum sander and a jet disc & linisher machine. There is a router/sanding room. The router tables are serviced by Shop Vacs with chip separators. The sanding bench is serviced by an outside 2hp Generic.

    I plan to acquire auto gates for all these machines on the main cluster, in the fullness of time, but for the purposes of this exercise I am interested in opinions regarding the main_extractor, and the lathe room extractor.

    The current Main extractor is a single phase 3hp woodman cyclone which has a huge bag filter on it. I do not currently have 3 phase in the dust extractor alcove, but I have put that as my top priority, so it is a given that I will get that.

    I am keen to get a CV-Max, Run 8" pipe up the centre line of the main workshop configuration, then run 4" droppers down to each machine.
    I am also keen to re-purpose the current woodman cyclone, & refurbish with a more powerful impeller and 3-phase Drive unit to service all 11 lathes off a single 8" line with 4" solid droppers wherever possible.
    The Laguna Bandsaw Line will be a special case as the drum sander is the biggest dust generator & the furthest machine. It can wait for the moment.

    I am under no illusions over the cost of addressing this, but it is what it is, & progress must be made. The shed is in a paddock on a farm, & the noise does not appear to bother the horses (who are up wind) much.

    The first question I wish to ask is.
    What is the best setup on the exhaust side of the Cyclone to not strangle it. It is outside so I don't have any constraints, but I'd prefer something better than a bag & I want as little restriction on the system as possible.
    Do you think a CV max, with auto gates on each station, will have enough guts to service the main workshop cluster of machines listed. It is a given that it will be an improvement on the status quo, but it is possible I may have to service it as 2 clusters. Do I need to think bigger?

    The next question is
    how many HP and what diameter impeller should I aim for to get 11x lathes serviced.

    The last Question is
    Does anyone recommend a "consultant" to chat to me, or the various interested parties in my Guild (read cranky old men and/or vitriolic protagonists).
    AT this stage I plan to address the main Workshop Line first, The Lathe room next, and the Laguna Line last

    Chris Parks, you have my number. Feel free to call me or drop me a PM

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    Default

    Sounds like you need it. After construction carpenters, who occasionally end up doing a job inside cupboards or small rooms without any dust extraction, wood turners usually have the highest exposure to wood dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by T91 View Post
    The first question I wish to ask is.
    What is the best setup on the exhaust side of the Cyclone to not strangle it. It is outside so I don't have any constraints, but I'd prefer something better than a bag & I want as little restriction on the system as possible.
    Just let it vent straight to atmosphere. No bag required.

    Do you think a CV max, with auto gates on each station, will have enough guts to service the main workshop cluster of machines listed.
    yes.

    I don't recommend using 4" ducting for most machine as it simply does not draw enough air to extract fine dust

    The next question is
    how many HP and what diameter impeller should I aim for to get 11x lathes serviced.
    How big is the lathe room?

    As a general starter I'd be looking at about a 10HP motor and 18" impeller.

    As extra insurance to fine dust control I'd suggest installing a large Evap AC on the room of the lathe room and unless its hot outside run it continuously with the fan only. Could be a bit chilli in wither but then again a 10HP 18" impeller is going to be doing the same thing to your lathe room. Of course this will not pick up any shavings so you will have to look at something else for that.

  4. #3
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    Apr 2019
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    Default

    Do each of the booths for the lathes have an extraction fan or anything?

    a few pics of the area or a rough drawing may also help

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Doing it properly is going to be mega $$$, think something like these:
    New 2018 Blue Vent Dust Extractor Blue vent Dust Extractor System Dust Collection Systems in Carrum Downs, VIC
    Used 2017 airtight solutions Dust Extraction System Dust Collection Systems in Bayswater North, VIC
    GOVE: Specialised Extraction for Woodworking Companies - Leda Machinery

    Probably need at least a 16" main line and 15kw motor to handle 11 x 6" drops with any hope of being useful.

    For a setup like yours I'd seriously recommend getting in touch with an extraction company; they'll be able to sort out a PROPER system that will do what you need.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    Canberra
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    Default

    Thanks to you all for your interest & comments.

    I will take photos of the main workshop and associated piping, lathe room and piping, the dust control alcove (outside) and machinery. I will attempt to re-produce a floor plan. It will probably take me until Thursday night as tomorrow is my wife's day off, and I like to spend it with her.

    Any one observing/lurking... feel free to add your views. This will be a slow speed conversation. I do have Harry Potter wands for sale, but between you and me, this is a bigger problem requiring cash, a willingness to prioritize where to spend it, plus determination to get to an outcome which benefits our members, hopefully the best outcome, but I have rarely seen any project get every facet "right" first time. There are always trade-offs.

    I will get back when I have photos etc

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
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    Default

    As Bob said above use 150mm drops to machines and modify the machine ports to be 150mm. What could be an option is if you have sheet metal facilities available building the cyclone(s) is something that could be considered. I have this year helped install a cyclone that has a 17" impeller which I think is a better size for this level of dust extraction and talking to them today they are simply amazed at the amount of air drawn into the 150mm ducts. As we discussed a while ago feel free to come up and have a look and we can discuss your needs and any questions you have and seeing a completed system should clear some of the cobwebs so to speak. There is a system being installed in Albury using two CV Maxes and I think you would need something similar. A good point about using two DE's is that if a single larger DE is used then if it goes down for whatever the reason then the whole system is down but using two independent systems if one fails then at least some of the machines can still be used.
    CHRIS

  8. #7
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    I've been thinking about your lathe room over the last day or so and reckon the way to minimise the total air flow required is by keeping the lathe room as small as possible because this capitalises on the total scavenging capability or combine sucking power of all 11 lathe collection ports. All 11 lathes will be rarely be producing max fine dust output at the same time so what might escape from a couple of lathes will very easily and quickly be grabbed by the combined sucking power of the others.

    Here is is a BOTE calculation
    If there are 11 lathes with 6" ports each drawing 1250 CFM that's 13750 CFM evacuated out of the room - that is a lot of air if the room is small.

    If the lathe room is say 10 x 10 x 3.3m that's 330 m^3, or 11250 cubft or a complete room change every 0.8 minutes which is considerably above the standard 20 room changes per hour needed for fine dust control

    Working backwards from 20 room changes per hour gives you 6600 m^3 per hour or 3850 CFM.
    If you want to go for a bit of safety then say go for 6000 CFM (171 CMM) - this would be doable with a 12" trunk and a 10HP/18" DC.

    Just bear in mind the combined scavenging effect will be significantly reduced if the lathe room becomes too large.

    It would be interesting to see how small an area 11 lathes could be squeezed into.
    If placed back to back in two lines it might be possible to squeeze them into a room say 5 x 10 m.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    Canberra
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    Default

    Agree with Elanjacobs - mega is needed. Move it away from the main building.

    I think Evan Dunstone has one of the big jobs up for sale. They just updated their shop.

    Otherwise, perhaps some of the individual machines need a 3hp machine with 6" for each.

  10. #9
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    Jul 2018
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    Canberra
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    Default

    I have rummaged around the shared document library and located the floor plan for the WoodCraft Guild's main shed.

    The machine shop is listed as "saws" at 119.8m2. In practice only the shaded area has machines serviced off the main extractor. I do not have a plan of the machine arrangement, but 2x Laguna 14BX machines, a 16/32 Drum Sander and a linisher are on the Lathe room common wall. Their DE is a 4" PVC pipe at ankle height out into the DE alcove to a shared 3hp generic. The plan is to have a large diameter pipe overhead with PVC drops to each machine, & coiled tube connects. All machines on this line must get auto-gates imo, based on experience of very few members ever bothering to use the manual gates

    The Main Cluster
    The 9' Jointer is between the garage door & arrow
    The 20" Wadkin is on the back wall near the garage door
    The Miter Saw is centered on the back wall
    The SawStop Pro is center of the shop
    The 15" thicknesser is between the sawstop and the jointer
    The Hammer C3 is aligned at the end of the short interior wall
    The Jet 24/48 Oscilating DrumSander will be on the face of the short wall (currently occupied by a woodfast cantilever bandsaw mill)
    This was serviced by an 8" ceiling mount Metal pipe from the DE alcove behind the lathe room to a central junction. Droppers ran from the central junction to each machine,but no more than 3 machines could be serviced at any 1 time, and even then badly. The idea is to rework this piping and Junction, then attach an adequate impeller & drive unit to an adequate cyclone. I personally feel it would be best to run the main pipe parallel to the wall with the garage door down the center line of the machine cluster rather than from the dust extractor alcove... but in the end I have to work with the guys who like things neatly packed into corners. The plan is to have auto gates on as many machines on the main cluster as possible

    The garage door and a side door at the other end of the jointer (near the short wall) are usually open when the machine room is in use
    This machine shop is swept out every 3 to 6 hours


    The Lathe Room is listed as 68m2 & has
    6x Vicmark Short Beds and 1 Long bed with headstocks down the exterior wall, lathe beds at right angles to the exterior wall.
    Currently serviced by 2x 4" PVC pipes running at chest height down the wall connected to 2x 2 Hp generics. I would like a single large diameter PVC tube running the length of the room along the upper wall ceiling join, with PVC pipe droppers down the wall to roughly the headstock, with cutoff blast gates as high on the dropper as possible. These blast gates would remain manual

    4x long bed Vicmarcs with headstocks down the interior wall, beds at right angles to the machine shop's shared interior wall. These are serviced by a waste height 4" PVC line, running out the back wall into a shared 3hp generic.
    The grinders, sink etc is against the ablutions wall, supplies microwaves etc next to the door into the machine shop

    The Lathe room is swept out, then vacuumed every 3 to 6 hours

    The Dust extractor alcove is out the back door of the Lathe room, but the entire back wall of the machine shop is vacant on the outside, and if I need another extractor housing I can mount it along that wall. We have a metalwork /welding shop in another building where such things can be fabricated (although I am not keen on fabricating a cyclone, because it will probably start another internal war between old protagonists)

    No photos just yet, sorry.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  11. #10
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    Default photos

    The first 4 photos are the machine shop
    Photo #1 is Jeremy and Jai under the main extractor piping showing the main junction.The dangling hose is because the sawstop blade guard is off, because Jai was using his crosscut sled. The main extractor pipe enters the shop from the DE alcove at far right.
    Photo #2 is where the Laguna line enters the machine shop from the DE alcove at ankle height.
    Photo #3 The Laguna Line runs down the interior wall that separates the lathe room
    Phot0 #4 The main Junction from below. The reason it looks like it was built from spare parts is that it was. A previous management committee cut off funds to complete the piping.
    Photo #5 The wadkin and the miter saw have been disconnected from the main extractor piping and are now serviced by a generic with a bag next to the garage door.
    Photo #6 is the 4x long bed lath line, on the dividing wall next to the machine shop. The flex pipe is joined off the waist height PVC line to the shared 3hp.
    Photo #7 is the rear of the short bed line with the door to the DE alcove. You can see the 2x 4"pipes at chest height
    Photo #8 is the front of the short bed line, where we have a single long bed


    We have had the "big bang" quote from a Specialist Sydney firm before. It was about $50,000 from memory.
    That sort of cash in a single hit is just not going tofly with any of our special interest groups (Our place is essentiall aclollective of various Special Interest Groups).

    The sort of resources that I have at my disposal are former NASA engineers, Naval aircraft engineers, a commercial shop builder, former tech (woodwork & metalwork) teachers, one former electrical contractor etc. I have a fully kkitted out metalwork shop with forge, milling machine etc.

    What I think I can get away with is incremental change. I should be able to do things in $5,000 to $10,000 bites, using the labor and skill sets I have access to. Fabricating a Penz cyclone is not beyond us,although Id rather buy off the shelf.Installing ducting is well within our capabilities . It was only bloody minded pitched battles between cranky old men that stopped us last time, and I think I can out maneuver most of that stuff these days.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #11
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    I agree with elan, commission a big extraction company, like Indux or EziDuct, to design and install a system which is able to handle the load. They have qualified professionals who do this stuff every day.

  13. #12
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    I would love to do the"big bang" approach, but that invariably results in major opposition due to the amounts involved attracting attention from everyone who ever had an opinion on anything. I think that if my object is to get something done, divide the problem into smaller sub-problems, then mitigate what you can, and re-design what you cannot. The short and the long of it is, I dont think I would survive the political battles the big bang approach would generate. We have always been a very conservative shop financially.

    I think I am going to end up with 4 separate smaller systems, all of which will be custom fitted to the specific building structure and machine cluster it services. I have some wiggle room around re-clustering machines, which I will use.

  14. #13
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    My experience is that using a professional extraction company is no guarantee of a successful outcome. In fact none of the sheds I have visited in the last couple of years, that had their dust extraction system installed by so called pro extraction companies, are happy with their levels of fine dust control, which is why they called me in. Pro extraction companies also only seem to know how to apply general commercial (expensive) operation criteria to a situation whereas most mens/club sheds are usually different. Operators tend to be older with preexisting health conditions and work practices are relatively intermittent.

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