Should WW Forums have a position on dust hazards and practices?

[Gunnaduit]

From reading around, it is clear that there are well-established industry guidelines about wood dust respirarory hazards and how to deal with them.

What is also clear is that much of the dust extraction equipment discussed on WW Forums, whose members primarily consist of amateur, recreational and some small professional woodworkers, would not comply with industry guidelines.

Here on WW Forums everyone is free to do, think and say what they like. Well, to the extent of the law and the WWF rules anyway. Nobody is suggesting anything about banning anything.

But it is well established that respirable particles such as wood dust are a health hazard. Whether any individual thinks that applies to themselves or not is a different issue. It remains a fact that the risk has been well established.

It is also well established how to go about dealing with that risk in a practical way. Unfortunately much of the equipment sold to woodworkers or made by woodworkers themselves as 'dust collectors' will not, under usual use or as often depicted in magazines and on websites and so on, counter the risk.

To recap, the main risk exposure factors are respirable particulate concentration in the air, and length of exposure time (both in terms of hours in the workshop on a daily basis and over the long term of years) to respirable particulates. As hobbyists and lone professionals we can all make our own decisions how want to juggle with those factors. Industry benchmark practices are there if anyone wants to consider them. Laissez faire practices are there in Pakistan, China, and here on WW Forums, if anyone wants to go that way, too.

As our society and its freedoms are set up to operate (and long live our personal freedoms), as long as people have been educated on the risks and options, public responsibility to the self-employed ends there, we're on our own. We can all make up our own minds. Nobody is forcing us to do anything.

Unfortunately public education about this issue is low, and judging against the industry advice, misconceptions abound here on WW Forums about what is appropriate equipment to deal with the risks. As in, you spend the money and the time following advice, express or implied, given on WW Forums, thinking you've done the right thing for yourself. But much of the advice and many of the examples provided by other forum members, if you judge by industry guidelines and research, is misguided and ineffective.

This continued implied encouragement of practices that would not meet industry or other safety standards might raise an issue for WW Forums in the future. Anyone newly entering the forums would reasonably conclude that if so many people are, for example, hooking up a shop-vac to their benchsaw, and there is no disclaimer or link directing to advice on health, benchmark standards, or endorsed safe practices, that it must be ok.

Yet it is quite likey that the forum adminsitrators and moderators are among the few members of the forum who know that such practices would never be accepted in industry, because these practices could never, due to the laws of physics, pass safety and health requirements, especially in relation to respiratory particle exposure limits.

If it happens in future that anyone who contracts a wood-dust related respiratory illness, can prove the primary cause of the illness, and starts looking with their injuries lawyer for someone in society to blame "because if only they knew about this years ago", then, Houston, we have a problem.

WW Forums does respond to other risk practices discussed on the forum. For example, and I'll let the moderators post the huge pink, red and blue letters at the bottom of this post, let me demonstrate:

Hey guys, just before I sign off on this thread, can you please tell me how to wire a 240V wall outlet myself? I've bought this GPO from Bunnings, and I'm wondering if I've got this right: Red house wire goes to Active, Black house wire goes to Neutral and Green/yellow wire goes to Earth. What if I swap the red and black? I can't see the electricity, and I've never been electrocuted yet, nor has anyone else I know, so it should be ok, shouldn't it?

So how many seconds after I click "submit new thread" before the warning disclaimer pops up and I have sparkies all over me like a rash? Get my point?

[snowyskiesau]

Not only is doing your own wiring dangerous, it's also illegal so a warning is warranted.

Please no more nanny state stuff! What next? warnings about using a chisel or a saw? At some point, common sense has to take over.

[BobL]

One significant difference between electricity and dust is that electrical installation and modification have very specific laws associated with them whereas there are no hard and fast regs with dust control management. Which standard are we going to use? Hang on there are no legal standards for home workshops. Industrially accepted dust levels are not even that well managed or regulated so what hope of arriving at something for a shed?

And be careful what you wish for - you could end up with a situation where all home wood work is simply banned from urban environments. For this reason alone I suggest that the WWF not have a position on dust control.

With dust, the total exposure, the type of dust and individual susceptibility are the biggest factors in determining overall risk of developing a problem. For a WWW that makes dust for a couple of hours a week and has no specific allergies the impact on their longevity is not detectable.

In a shed there are many risks and for most weekend warriors dust is in general well down the list. For example I would put fire risks above dust but how many WWW have a fire extinguisher (I have two) or fire alarm in their shed?

Folks that turn 20+ hours a week are much more likely to be impACTED.

Risk of injury (and death) from untrained use of power tools and machinery is also way above dust. So what are we going to do? Mandate training, run little certificate courses for using a power drill?

The people that take dust control more seriously are often those that have been affected in some way or know. I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks in 2002 after working with MDF outside. This got me thinking about dust management but it still took me 9 years to implement something adequate in my shed. I was also lucky in that I had a lot of experience in working with air handling and extreme (ultra low) levels of dust management and I can read and understand technical literature so I could work out what was needed.

What hope for the average WWW - not much I'm afraid.

[Grandad-5]

Please no more nanny state stuff! What next? warnings about using a chisel or a saw? At some point, common sense has to take over.

I'm afraid I have to agree. I had enough of OH&S in the workplace when I was working full time. The last thing I want is for the same thinking to come into my hobby workshop.
There's common sense safety precautions and then there's paranoia.
I do however totally agree with the administrators of this forum covering their backsides. We are indeed becoming a litigious population.
I’m sure however that the standard disclaimer given on every forum I’ve ever visited of the opinions expressed herein are those of individuals and are not necessarily endorsed by the administrators will serve the purpose.
I believe you'll find that disclaimer is already in place.
Cheers
Jim

[BobL]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]I'm afraid I have to agree. I had enough of OH&S in the workplace when I was working full time. The last thing I want is for the same thinking to come into my hobby workshop.

Yep agree 100%. OHS has gone over the top at work big time and I'm glad I've only got 29 weeks to go.

My one concern is what are sometimes posted as "dust" control solutions are only (intentionally or otherwise) "chip" control solutions. Unfortunately the newbies or even some oldies read these posts as "total chip and dust solutions" and blindly proceed in ignorance.

The nub of the issue here is the vague meaning of "dust" , which covers everything from wood chips to molecules. I can't see a clear way of fixing this.

[Gunnaduit]

Let me repeat.

1. Nobody is talking about banning anything.
2. We can all make our own decisions.
3. Long live our personal freedoms.
4. We can all make up our own minds.
5. Nobody is forcing us to do anything.

Talking of paranoia, I wasn't aware that WW Forums is part of the state. It isn't.
(Uh, it isn't, right?)

I'm actually taken aback. Apalled. The initial reaction has been, "Mate, shhh, don't tell anyone, we could all get into trouble". That would be more or less the words spoken in the James Hardie board room back in 1964. Not by snivelling corporate psychopaths, but by ordinary people. It is amazing to see how easily it can happen, so thanks for the social experiment.

Wouldn't the appropriate reaction be to say "yeah, right, I'm also concerned for all the poor buggers who don't know the risks and don't know this stuff won't work for them"

Apart from future-proofing WWF against possible litigation in, mmm, say 20 years time, the whole issue of imposed legislation and regulation is quite a long way off from what I would have thought was a decent civic duty -- which is to educate and warn people of dangers they are not aware of. Or is that being a bit nanny, is it? Better to just say "everyone to themselves, don't know about you mate, that's your lookout".

In any case, whatever your attitude to civic duty, the mere fact that the hazard research is there, there is industrial legislation, and there are recommended worksafe practices, means that if the govt want to come into the home woodworker space and regulate the # out of it, they aren't going to start with what gets tossed around on WWF. Nice forum as it might be, I don't think it is really such an influential government lobby group. Government will get involved if it becomes clear that people are getting sick, or a pattern of private litigation begins to emerge. They will also read all the government level documentation on hazards and practices, of which there is plenty. They won't read WWF posts to set policy.

But way, way before the govt regulates anything, there is a big, huge space where they wait to see if a sector can regulate itself. Why? Because really the government doesn't want to get involved, it's more expense, more hassle, less votes. But if you don't self-regulate and things start to go wrong, then sure, expect to lose privileges.

I think a good example is the model engineers. They have a voluntary boiler code, and are scrupulous about ensuring all running engines on club grounds are approved to it. They talk quite openly that if they don't, they'll be regulated, the government will take over and introduce clumsy regulation, and they'll lose all their privileges.

As to common sense. I probably would have got warnings about chisels from my dad. Can't recall now, it would have been when I was very young. I'm happy he didn't just say to himself "I ought to tell sonny boy about that chisel, but I'm no nanny, let him find out for himself". As to other warnings, woodworking publications abound with general disclaimers. Powered machinery always comes with warnings.

But getting down to it, the big problem on this forum is that, talking about common sense, it is common sense that you can use a vacuum cleaner to suck up dust. "Look, I'll show you", every woodworker can triumphantly say to the panicky 6" pipe guy, turn on his shopvac and suck up the dust. Done. What can be more common sense than that?
"Er, well, um, you don't fully understand the physics ..."
"Listen, d#ckbrain, I just showed you it works."
etc.

The second big problem is that the other 'dust collection' machinery usually sold, and the way it is set up, doesn't work. Those here on WWF who have read up and thought through it know that. But it evidently, clearly, patently, obviously, is not generally known. There's a big difference between dust and other hazards like chisels and powersaws.

I would have thought that, apart from backside-covering, it would be a courtesy to educate on the hazards and the practices, before everyone can go off and make an informed, rather than an uninformed, decision about what they want to do. Particularly for newcomers to the forum looking for advice and who are learning by seeing what everyone else doing.

Not stupid stuff like mandatory training courses, banning things, big flashing pink writing at the bottom of every post (but that's not nanny state if you're talking about electricity, apparently, that's serious and important, unlike other things that can kill you), home OH&S inspections by forum moderators, or any other red herring anyone wants to put out there. A simple policy thread at the top of the dust extraction sub-forum, easily spotted and well done with good and complete links to reliable information websites, would do.

But hey, I don't want to be a nanny.

[BobL]

Please no more nanny state stuff! What next? warnings about using a chisel or a saw? At some point, common sense has to take over.

I agree with no more many state stuff, but comparing the dangers of something like invisible dust to those involving a chisel or a saw is a bit of stretch. Unless one is a complete "nong", common sense can easily be applied to use of something that one can clearly see. The problem with invisible dust is that it is invisible so common sense cannot easily be applied to it. We see clear evidence of this over and over again on the forum with posts that show ignorance of the fact that all home workshops are full of fine dust and the majority of people have no clue it is there. Then there are those that know something is there and think they have a solution but do not understand the science behind what is going on so do not know how to fix it.

Contrary to the vast array of largely intractable technical info being posted lately there are very simple guidelines that will improve things considerably over current practices.
1) make sure any dust collection vents outside the shed as far as possible away from open doors and windows. This effectively rules out all vacuum cleaners.
2) Run any dust collection system at least 20 minutes or so after the last dust making activity. This rules out using parallel switches connecting DC systems with power tools or machines
3) Use as much natural ventilation as possible (bearing in mind #1)

It's not rocket science but it's some way from common sense, well at least for some people anyway.

[BobL]

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I would have thought that, apart from backside-covering, it would be a courtesy to educate on the hazards and the practices, before everyone can go off and make an informed, rather than an uninformed, decision about what they want to do. Particularly for newcomers to the forum looking for advice and who are learning by seeing what everyone else doing.
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Humm . . . sounds like we have a new religious convert. Be careful, pretty soon no one will be listening, or more likely no one except a handful are listening.

Your post also seems to suggest that no one has been preaching the gospel on the forum and we should start doing it from now. If you look back through the Dust control forum you will see plenty of posts that have been preaching the gospel for many years. A big problem is I know several members who will no longer visit the dust forum because the zealots jump on them for their basic practices. There are also many misconceptions about dust posted in other forums. One major misconception is about the use of masks - but let me not get started on that one. . . . .

[Gunnaduit]

Well, yes, Bob, I did start out by posting a question that basically asked if I could use a vacuum cleaner on a tablesaw. I didn't know any different, except a doubt that it might not have enough suction. I was pretty skeptical about the comments that came back about health risks. I looked at the BP site, and remained skeptical, especially since he doesn't actually cite anything, just resorts to the old "experts say".

But what if he was right, so I read more widely. Once I got onto the technical literature, which is up to decades old and pretty consistent, I realised the conventional position was that these risks are taken account of right throughout industry. It's no drama, there's no debate, it's just part of the routine. It's only a drama on this forum because of the gobsmacking amount of mis-information here. Which misled me, for one.

I'm no zealot, and I'm happy never to say another word about it, just to make that point. After all, I was able to stop order the chip collector I was about to buy, so I'm ok. It would be crook though if Woodwork Forums, after a direct questioning of its policies, bows down to the naysayers, scoffers and the apathetic and doesn't put up good practice advise.

To me, I just can't see what all the fuss is about. There's a specific health risk, there's specific practice guidelines, so you put up the advice. Should have been done years ago, its an administrative thing not an emotional thing. Why does everyone get so twisted up about it? If nobody is listening, then just do it.

[mic-d]

Humm . . . sounds like we have a new religious convert. Be careful, pretty soon no one will be listening, or more likely no one except a handful are listening.

Your post also seems to suggest that no one has been preaching the gospel on the forum and we should start doing it from now. If you look back through the Dust control forum you will see plenty of posts that have been preaching the gospel for many years. A big problem is I know several members who will no longer visit the dust forum because the zealots jump on them for their basic practices. There are also many misconceptions about dust posted in other forums. One major misconception is about the use of masks - but let me not get started on that one. . . . .

I don't see how WWF can be liable for anything suggested on here. They are just a conduit for people's ideas, often whacky ideas...

The bold is a reason I don't post there anymore. Just a point of clarification Bob, it sounds like you do not consider yourself a member of the zealots club. Is that an accurate inference of your comment?

[Chris Parks]

First up I think it is fairly obvious that I have a vested interest in this but if you track my posts on this stuff I was aware of it a long time before I became involved in Clearvue.

I think this thread will have a very short life due to lack of interest and that does not reflect on the good intentions of the OP. It seems to me that the last thing people want to do is take a preventative role in their own health care, witness smoking as a prime example of this, people just don't care.

I had a chap ring me last night, he may well be a member of this forum but I am sure he won't mind if I relate his story. he had just come from visiting the doctor and was told that wood dust was affecting his respiratory system so he wants to do something about it. This is typical of us humans, we react we do not prevent as a rule.

Media coverage on the subject has up to now been largely misleading and in some case just wrong. They have advocated as a rule that bag type dust collectors were ok to use, a fact that we, well me and Bob & the OP know to be wrong. If someone reads a glossy mag and it has always been a good source of information what happens? the reader believes it and no one can blame him or her for that.

I think the education needs to be ramped up and I am going to do that in the next twelve months, will it help? maybe but don't bet your house on it.

I guess I haven't addressed the question, just gone off on a tangent as usual, sorry about that.

Gunna, don't lose the faith as there are not many believers out there and fewer who try and educate others and we need all the help we can get.

[Grandad-5]

Gunnaduit, I must confess to having misunderstood the objective of your opening post. I mistakenly thought you were referring to a legal liability angle.
Now that I understand the situation more fully perhaps the answer is as simple as a "Sticky" There are at least two others not including yourself on this very thread that appear more than qualified to present the points you are concerned about.
One place, where all the relevant info can be located and seen easily. Once the info is there, lock the thread and make it a sticky.

I well understand the point made of people not wanting to post because of being jumped on as I have been the victim of that myself. I'm sure the person responsible was merely attempting to do what they thought was right but it left me with a reminder to leave the subject of dust collection well and truly alone on this forum.
I may point out, that merely stating something is a carcinogenic has little effect. So is sunshine and peanut butter. The commonous of carcinogenic materials tends to make that statement go in one ear and out the other.
If instead, I could have simply been referred to the sticky, I may not have reacted in the same way.

Jim

[BobL]

I don't see how WWF can be liable for anything suggested on here. They are just a conduit for people's ideas, often whacky ideas...

The bold is a reason I don't post there anymore.

Well there you go

Just a point of clarification Bob, it sounds like you do not consider yourself a member of the zealots club. Is that an accurate inference of your comment?

Having had to visualise work spaces in terms of concentration & dust distribution curves for a reasonable proportion of my working life it's difficult for me to look at any work space and see anything else. I guess I was a zealot but now I've calmed down a bit and try to stick to facts as I see them I admit I don't hold back when claims are made that cannot be demonstrated. I also like to think I'm an increasing realist and realise that not everyone has the $, exposure or interest in this topic.

. . . . . If instead, I could have simply been referred to the sticky, I may not have reacted in the same way.

There are plenty of stickies on this and other forums I wouldn't give tuppence for. Most of the technical stuff posted on this topic would be meaningless nothing to most people. The stuff needs to be made far more digestible than this which is what BP has largely done, but as we see, his mode of writing annoys some people (including to some extent me ). If there was one sticky on this topic it could be - "Before asking your question in this forum please read BP's site" Then we could at least have a discussion where by we start on the same page and are re-stating the bleeding obvious about DC every time.

[Groggy]

Gunnaduit, the forums, admins and moderators are not responsible for the content of posts on any topic and provide rules to keep the tone and level of conversations at a reasonable level.

Were the admin team to continuously edit or moderate posts on ANY topic based on whether that was right or wrong it would then create a legal problem - should we then go back over the last twelve years and remove all bad advice on dust collection so Google can't find it? What if there is bad scroll saw advice and someone loses a finger? It could be argued that the person saw the care taken with dust collection and assumed that all topics were moderated that way, therefore the forums and admins were liable.

Simplistic arguments, I know, but it would open a legal can of worms. I for one would cease moderating immediately and I suspect the others would too.

Posts on these forums are there for people to read, assess, and make their own opinions about. Knowledge continues to improve and best practices are constantly evolving so even if we got it 100% right on one day, it could be wrong the next.

I have read bad advice threads on chainsaws, electrical advice, hearing protection, eye protection, power tool use, machinery use and a dozen other topics. In most instances it starts a conversation where members will argue and point out why the technique or advice is not safe. This is a good thing as it raises what is often a common misconception then the discussion educates people.

So - what can be done? The forums have a wiki but it does not get a lot of use. We have the ability to Create a FAQ (Frequently asked questions) Sticky Post and place that in the Dust Collection forum. I would suggest that is the best way to go. Start with the basics eg: Is dust bad for me? and provide a paragraph or two and a link then tackle the next issue eg Do machines sold for home use actually do the job required to protect my health? More detail and links, next issue...etc

I'd be happy to assist with the creation of such a FAQ. However - it would have to be labelled as not being the opinion of the forum owner or admin team, the same as every other post.

[mic-d]

Well there you go


Having had to visualise work spaces in terms of concentration & dust distribution curves for a reasonable proportion of my working life it's difficult for me to look at any work space and see anything else. I guess I was a zealot but now I've calmed down a bit and try to stick to facts as I see them I admit I don't hold back when claims are made that cannot be demonstrated. I also like to think I'm an increasing realist and realise that not everyone has the $, exposure or interest in this topic.



There are plenty of stickies on this and other forums I wouldn't give tuppence for. Most of the technical stuff posted on this topic would be meaningless nothing to most people. The stuff needs to be made far more digestible than this which is what BP has largely done, but as we see, his mode of writing annoys some people (including to some extent me ). If there was one sticky on this topic it could be - "Before asking your question in this forum please read BP's site" Then we could at least have a discussion where by we start on the same page and are re-stating the bleeding obvious about DC every time.

Bob, thank you for your frank reply.