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  1. #31
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    Apr 2002
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    Yeh you realy are missing the point.

    for routers, sanders and other hand held power tools you need 100mm or 150mm hoses like a hole in the head.

    for these machines you need high static pressures and relativly low flow rates and this means small hoses.
    Mostly 32mm ID at the tool, stepping up to 50mm ID if you want for longer runs.......You need Multistage vacuum cleaner motors to achieve the sort of static pressure required.

    Generally in an optimumly designed cyclone the output pipe will be 4 times larger than the input pipe and the drum diameter will be 6 times the diameter of the input hose.

    The output pipe does not have to remain 4 times the diameter of the input for long....and mostly if the cyclone is sucked on the pipe will be reduced in diameter shortly after it leaves the drum.

    The purpose is to slow the air velosity so dust is not drawn up the output

    Cyclonic seperators with out a cone on the bottom can be quite effective, and the very real reason for their use is thay can be significantly shorter.

    Years ago after I built my proof of concept mini cyclone, I was keen on building a full scale unit......till I realised that it needed to be about 3.5 meters tall and needed at least a 3HP motor to do what I expected of it.

    My near optimum but smaller waste bucket than I wanted mini cyclone is nearly 1.8 meters tall, the dust bucket in the earlier photo is about 600mm tall.

    If I was doing it again I would not buid a full height cone & drum type cyclone.

    I would build an optimised version of what you have attempted.....it is simply more practical.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Gold Coast
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    Hey soundman, I'd be really keen to see some internal photos of your mini dust extractor.

    Cheers.

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    If I was looking to fork out for an expensive vacuum attatchment for my router, and if I was prepared to have a hose attached to the router getting in my way all the time, and if I was prepared to fork out for additonal vacuum cleaners to create this high vacuum - low volume, then perhaps that might be the way to go, but since I have already purchased a 3HP low pressure high flow DC, then I really need to maximise what I have.

    I agree there are ways like side entry that can improve efficency without having to spend a great deal of money to get improvement. I have already forked out $27 for a 90 degree 150mm right angle bend, and I have a 150mm inlet on the DC, so all I really need to improve the existing extractor is to buy some 150mm flexible pipe and clamps.

    Surely removing the 4" hose / 90mm DE outlet and replacing it with a 150mm outlet pipe / 150mm hose has to improve increase both vacuum and flow until I have chance to redesign something more efficent. I dont recall seeing anyone mention previously having a larger outlet than inlet before but it does provide food for thought.

  5. #34
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    Dec 2011
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    Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlTaiR View Post
    Hey soundman, I'd be really keen to see some internal photos of your mini dust extractor.

    Cheers.
    Likewise I would be keen to see what you have done inside... A picture is worth a 1000 words.

  6. #35
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    Apr 2002
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    Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadScratcher View Post
    If I was looking to fork out for an expensive vacuum attatchment for my router, and if I was prepared to have a hose attached to the router getting in my way all the time, and if I was prepared to fork out for additonal vacuum cleaners to create this high vacuum - low volume, then perhaps that might be the way to go, but since I have already purchased a 3HP low pressure high flow DC, then I really need to maximise what I have.

    I agree there are ways like side entry that can improve efficency without having to spend a great deal of money to get improvement. I have already forked out $27 for a 90 degree 150mm right angle bend, and I have a 150mm inlet on the DC, so all I really need to improve the existing extractor is to buy some 150mm flexible pipe and clamps.

    Surely removing the 4" hose / 90mm DE outlet and replacing it with a 150mm outlet pipe / 150mm hose has to improve increase both vacuum and flow until I have chance to redesign something more efficent. I dont recall seeing anyone mention previously having a larger outlet than inlet before but it does provide food for thought.
    Sorry mate but your logic does not flow.

    1. a low suction high volume dust extractor like we use on large machines will be little or no use at all on hand held tools like routers and sanders.

    2. hooking up a small bore dust seperator to a high volume low suction macine is likewise completly pointless.

    3. Dust spouts for routers are not that expensive, usually arround $20. For some operations they work well but for others that are useless in my opinion.......

    but my main use for the High pressure low volume "shop vac" type suction is sanders, I simply wont use a ROS, belt or orbital sander without forced dust extraction, the amount of fine dust produced is just unacceptable

    hooking a sander to a large bore dust extractor is, again, pointless.


    Back to modifying your extractor.........sorry but there is no "must", plenty of "might" and "maybe"....it all depends on how the machine was designed and where the limitations lie.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  7. #36
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    Location
    Brisbane
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    as for what is inside my dust bucket.

    not much and I have done nothing to it, its as it was removed from an inbuilt houshold vacuum system..probably 90 vintage

    the top contains the inlet and the outlet, above the inlet there is a woven cloth cone that is weighted by a big lump of metal in the middle.

    in the top of the bucket ther is a cone shaped baffle.

    in the past i used to suck on this with a shop vak with a needle felt bag, as it is set up now it is sucked on by a houshold vak with a paper bag and a pillow type post filter.

    It is far from ideal, but it works reasonably well.
    The suction loss is significant but not horrible.....there is less suction loss than my mini cyclone when the rig is clean....but it does clog more redily......when the cloth cone and the vak bag are both clogged suction is very poor indeed.
    A good thump or shake will shed most of the clog off the cloth cone..the vak bag is a different story.

    I have also posted a couple of pictures of my minicyclone, that workes very well

    It is a straight forward Bill Pentz style cyclone. There is however no air ramp and the inlet is plain & circular........These two issues are suposed to significantly effect the efficiency...but I cant see it.

    When I first built this, I sucked up the entire contents on a near full white dust bucket.....much of which was sanding dust.
    I cleaned the shop vak thoroughly first...........from about 10 liters of dust I got the smallest traces of dust on the inside of the canister in the vak.

    When the air is flowing well the extraction efficiency of the cyclone appears to be in the high 99%.
    AHH...but as soon as the air flow is choked by a sander for instance it suffers badly.......if I am trying for good efficiency, I fit a Y adaptor with the sander on one leg and a long length of vak hose on the other.
    suction suffers a little but effciency improves considerably.

    cheers
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    454

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    In retrospect I probably should try a dust nozzle attachment on my router before relegating it to the too hard basket. Just have to see where I can find one for the Makita RP2301FC locally...

  9. #38
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    Brisbane
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    Most popular machines have a dust spout available as a spare part, in fact some come suppled with the machines in other markets such as europe.

    I have dust connections for 3 out of my 4 routers.

    If you are trenching in flat material they can work quite well, particularly if you have the hose on the following side of the router.

    If you are doing edge rounding, chamfering or trimming, best toss most standard spouts and graft one on below the base.
    32mm electrical conduit makes very cheap and easy adaptors, it fits straight up the middle of standard vak hose. It alsocan be redily shaped and formed with a heat gun or some boiling water, and the suuff glues very well.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  10. #39
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    Feb 2020
    Location
    Maryborough Qld
    Age
    81
    Posts
    25

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    Hi HeadScratcher,
    For your 90mm hose and fittings, try Hare and Forbes, they're out at Coopers Planes. They will also have dust collector units of various sizes. All you have to do is pipe the suction port of your Thein to the inlet of your dust collector, and try to get a common size hose or hard piping for the connection. Also try to use as few reducers as you can, every one steals some of your flow, creates turbulence and destroys the efficiency of the setup.

  11. #40
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Albury
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    3,019

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    Did you realise there have been no posts to this thread for 8 years? Probably done and dusted by now. Pun intended.

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