Thread: My Clear vue installation

Russell, the speed is your choice but every CV runs at 60 in the US and I always set up our VFD's to run at a maximum of 60. The beauty of the Powtran is the rotary control can be used to wind the speed up or down where the Huanyang we initially used is brain dead in that dept having no rotary control although one can be fitted. I guess the short answer is it is best run at 60 as the flow is much greater but the option is there to run it slower if wished. I have run mine at 70 with no ill effects but BP recommends no faster than that though I know one person in the US who runs at 64 from memory but that is not a CV.

The VFD can be set up with different profiles to do different jobs if you wish.

[QUOTE=Chris Parks;1670291]Some background on the VFD thing.

When we began to look at the CV for Australia we had the issue of using a motor intended for domestic USA use. .........

Thank you Chris you said it much better than I could have done.

Hi a bit of a update
Have not had much time to do a lot more on it but I connected up the cnc as I had to cut some wood. Just a quick job and thought I would try out the suck.So made a quick fitting to the cnc head thinking this would be a test for the final one. Will put up some photos when back at home, Well it suck very good but,,,, the problem was as I had not finished the outside vent yet and had the neighbor around pronto about the the noise and the radio interference...... Thought they where out....
The radio I believe I can fix with some shielded cable from the VFD to the motor. The outlet noise is going to need a muffler of some sort, I have 3-4 possible answer here,
1 Where I am looking at venting out and up is to bend this around some more so that it runs up the roof pitch in a box with sound proofing inside of it and widen the cross section also as to slow the air down before it vented.
2 Do the same box as above but put it inside the shed, a few different ways to do this depending where the final vent goes. maybe not towards that neighbor..
3 Put filter on it and box it all up ....Not keen on this as it takes up floor space.


any thoughts out there much appreciated.


Russell

Howdy, nice read so far.
on soundproofing I am not an expert however have a had a bit to do with soundproofing over the years here is my unqualified opinion, which may be of use,
to reduce noise you need to change the direction of the sound the more changes in direction of the sound the quieter it gets. I.e. the more interference with the sound travelling the more energy it loses.
Just drew up some roughy pictures to help ( I am no artist, but it is quicker than me on computer)
image on the lower left is how we used to " silence" spa blowers on the inlet side. Cap off the pipe, fill it with the appropriate number of holes, usually a gazillion, and then affix a larger sleeve over the outside. Blowers are 40mm PVC inlet we would use 65mm then 80mm and for good measure we would sleeve again with 100mm filling the 80mm with holes too. We would adjust the 100mm design so that the holes in the 65/80mm pipe did not line up.
The picture on the right is just simple arrow hitting solid bouncing at 90 degrees then hitting something solid and bouncing at 90 degrees which is how I understand noise travels.

I have also lined an entire garage with the bulk egg trays( the trays that hold about 48 eggs) and expanda foam for noise insulation many many years ago so we could have happy neighbours when band practice would go late at night. The chicken farm was really apprehensive about selling us so many trays until they believed our story about soundproofing, then they were most helpful. (The things we kids did for fun before computers huh)
anyhow FWIW
cheers,
P.S still haven't got the knack of inserting pics yet

Thanks Wrongwayfirst for this informative suggestion for sound control. I like it very much and will incorporate these principles into my solution.

Russell

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

The 50/60HZ thing translates to other DE equipment sold in Oz. I would think it is a fairly safe bet that all performance figures quoted are supplied by the manufacturers at 60HZ as for the Yank market and no allowance is made for quoting true figures for 50HZ. They wouldn't do that would they??The numbers would look sicker than they already are!!

Chris,

That would go a long way to explaining why the "nominal" CFM figures for dustys are so untrustworthy. BobL says "Look at the quoted figure and divide it by two". If we allow about 30% for the delta between 50 Hz and 60 Hz, and then allow for some pipe, flexy, a couple of fittings and a machine port, all of a sudden BobL's suggestion that we halve the quoted figure makes logical as well as empirical sense.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

Chris,

That would go a long way to explaining why the "nominal" CFM figures for dustys are so untrustworthy. BobL says "Look at the quoted figure and divide it by two". If we allow about 30% for the delta between 50 Hz and 60 Hz, and then allow for some pipe, flexy, a couple of fittings and a machine port, all of a sudden BobL's suggestion that we halve the quoted figure makes logical as well as empirical sense.

Delta between 50 and 60 Hz is 40% for Pressure but if you do the substitutions into the equations you will see that it is 20% for flow.
The other thing manufacturers do is a single point pressure measurement in the middle of the air stream for the impeller alone that adds a delta of between 10 and 30% on top of that.
Then they throttle the impeller on both sides with restricted inlets and outlets.
Then when ducting/bags/filters/cyclones etc are added that kicks it out even further.

Getting back to the the noise problem and now I had time to think more about it, been too busy to do it up till now.

So I have come up with the idea of putting a large muffle box inside the shed lined with 100 mm Soundscreen and baffles of the same stuff so it is not a straight through flow, bounce the sound around adsorbing box. It will also slow down the air flow a great deal as well as the box expands in size.
Box size OD is 2400 high x 1100 wide x 450 deep made from MDF with the air coming in top left side and exhausting out the back at the bottom through a 900 width 400 high hole and this comes out under my wood rack that is between the shed side and a solid fence. The sketch is looking at the back through the the wall of shed the dark brown uprights are the wall studs, no sheeting shown.The light brown studs are the cyclone mounts.
Will use a wire mesh on inside to help hold the insulating material in place as well to stop any wildlife taking up residence.

Now to put it to the test What do YOU think??????


My son with his fancy phone to a sound Analyzer image of the exhaust showing the different frequencies for those who are interested.This was taken about 100mm to the side of outlet of the temporary wooden expanding elbow I was testing.

Originally Posted by rusel

So I have come up with the idea of putting a large muffle box inside the shed lined with 100 mm Soundscreen and baffles of the same stuff so it is not a straight through flow, bounce the sound around adsorbing box. It will also slow down the air flow a great deal as well as the box expands in size.
Box size OD is 2400 high x 1100 wide x 450 deep made from MDF with the air coming in top left side and exhausting out the back at the bottom through a 900 width 400 high hole and this comes out under my wood rack that is between the shed side and a solid fence. The sketch is looking at the back through the the wall of shed the dark brown uprights are the wall studs, no sheeting shown.The light brown studs are the cyclone mounts.
Will use a wire mesh on inside to help hold the insulating material in place as well to stop any wildlife taking up residence.

Now to put it to the test What do YOU think??????


My son with his fancy phone to a sound Analyzer image of the exhaust showing the different frequencies for those who are interested.This was taken about 100mm to the side of outlet of the temporary wooden expanding elbow I was testing.

It's hard to tell with sound spectra whether you are really testing the frequency response of the phone mic or the real deal.

Assuming it is representative it appears that you have have low freq than higher freq noise which the soundscreen will not help all that much with so I would put a lot more effort into getting some denser material into the muffler structure as you don't want the sound exiting at the first contact point with the walls.

Because their products don't handle low frequencies well most acoustic insulation suppliers (including The soundscreen) all recommend using materials with a high density wall materials, like thicker high density plaster board on both sides of internal walls, and bricks on external walls.

FWIW, My enclosure is clad with Trimdeck to match the shed. Under that I used 32 mm melamine as an external wall and 16 mm MDF as an internal wall with a 25 mm gap into which I placed some regular thermal insulation. ON the inside wall I glued 100 or 75 mm mattress foam. If you have to pay for Soundscreen I wouldn't bother, just use something like foam or even cardboard.

Thanks Bob it good to get advice that not try to sell a product.
I can really understand the sound chart the Minus dB on the side throw me??
The noble son want to make some resonator boxes... don't know if enough frequencies can be covered this way??
Do have a email into a sound expert that several other sound people have recommended. He coming back to me next week....

Bob, I have a double mattress in the trailer now Maybe just poke the exhaust into it.... call it done...

Russell

Originally Posted by rusel

Chris
My question is should I be running my CV at 50 or 60 Hz? Looking back on all emails with Stephen there is no mention of "max" only CV1800....
MY VFD ia 3 phase to 3 phase. The Powtran book has now grown to 240 pages it like a small novel ...the plot is a bit hard to follow ..

FYI I have added the page from the vdf manual re tuning

Back to my CV installation I have now made some more bends of different radius
More photo when I have more installed

If you run at 60 Hz you will get the power that the USA gets from its motors. Why not experiment to see how effective your cyclone is at different frequencies. You should not exceed 70 as this may damage the impeller.

Shedman

Originally Posted by shedman

If you run at 60 Hz you will get the power that the USA gets from its motors. Why not experiment to see how effective your cyclone is at different frequencies. You should not exceed 70 as this may damage the impeller.

Shedman

Bear the noise factor in mind. At 60 Hz my Clear Vue 1800 would suck start a Jumbo Jet. A Clear Vue Max would likely start a whole fleet of them. Without an exhaust my noise levels read 97 dB (ouch). I now have it down to about 65 dB at 60 Hz, which is fine, but it would be louder at 70 Hz. The difference between 50 and 60 Hz is about 10 dB, meaning it is twice as noisy at 60 Hz as it is at 50 Hz. Never had mine above 60 Hz.

Originally Posted by shedman

If you run at 60 Hz you will get the power that the USA gets from its motors. Why not experiment to see how effective your cyclone is at different frequencies. You should not exceed 70 as this may damage the impeller. Shedman

FWIW Impellers turn into sirens above about 60 Hz.

If I can find my sound meter I will do some db readings at different frequencies up to 70hz. IIRC at 60hz the level was 92db on mine. I had one person come back to me after I warned him of the noise issue and assured me that it was not noisy at all. He was an air conditioning engineer doing the installation for his son who had a woodworking business. That was an interesting installation as it was a dedicated sanding room being ventilated by a Max and we had to calculate the air flow in to match the demand of the Max and the room was built with the vents incorporated. The engineer asked me my views on it all before he revealed his qualifications and I was happy in that I had not made a fool of myself with the advice I put forward.