Thread: My Clear vue installation

Originally Posted by Oddy

Thanks for that John, those prices look better than I have found at local plumbing supply places. Did you find flex hose with them as well or have to go elsewhere for that?

Oddy,

Those prices are a few months old, but they will be close. The plumbing supplies places around me charge like wounded buffalo, so I was pleased to find Total Eden.

I got my flexy from Carba Tec. I think Clear Vue Oz normally stock some, but were out of stock at the time.

Questions to answer
groeneaj....Yes wire it myself, not my first by few, yes it is straight forward.
Oddy...Yes the radio interference was fix when I did the final fix and I used a shielded cable from the VDF to motor.
John Samuel...Those prices are very good must be chinese fitting good enough for DE. Just look to see where there are about a hours trip for me Would have been worth it if I knew at the start and was getting all the fitting in one go.
Bobl..... the air is direct away from the roller door when it goes though the wall and under a wood rack that fits between the shed and fence. Distance to get back to the door is around 12 mts


The Test of the DE
Decided to make my own gates (8 all up) out of stuff laying around. So a bit of CAD and over to the CNC. The video is showing a full depth cut 16mm MDF with a 6mm cutter. This has the DE running at 50hz with only one gate open
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5bwm2PpNtA
More then happy with the result. One trick I did seeing I could not just tape the MDF gate to the pipe was to use the cutout in the middle to make 4 buttress that have a chipboard screw in each that hold the pipe very firmly in place whilst giving a support of 30mm to the pipe on both sides of the gate.
Made a floor sweep up and used the suggestion I got from the Woodworking show where I bumped it to one of the managers from the Corrimal mens shed and that was make the mouth the same size as the broom...works to perfection
Finalised the cyclone setup Place the VFD, made a lid lifter and put a viewing port in lid to see how full it is.
Bandsaw is connected to the port that comes with it but this will need to be made better.
Connect up the downdraft table and I made the decision to give the slats a quick run over with the orbital sander just to smooth them, but it sucked the sandpaper off twice..

Just to add the the talk on VDF and impeller size...While talking with the Corrimal guy he told me the run the DE a max with a 16 inch impeller at 57hz which bring it up to it amp rating anyway have a look at there web site on it
Corrimal Community Men's Shed Cyclone Dust Collection System

Russell

Originally Posted by rusel

Bobl..... the air is direct away from the roller door when it goes though the wall and under a wood rack that fits between the shed and fence. Distance to get back to the door is around 12 mts

The other comments I would make are about your connection to the TS.
I realize you are still setting up but
- it is better to have that blast right back up where that ducting joins the main ducting
- a 90 PVC bend will be less restrictive than that tight flexy radius.
- do you envisage changing the TS port to 6"

Bobl
TS ? = tablesaw... Hardly use it, looking at a temporary plug in flex to floor sweep design
BS... need to check out best dust extraction design for them, also got to add a light. Made BS movable most probable never move it. So should be flex but will be 6in

Russell

Originally Posted by rusel

Have had a go at making some duct bends and junctions.

first bend failed... Tried heating a section of pipe and bending it over form you can see the result
second one.. cut a lot of vees out of one side of the pipe and the warming the connected side as I bent it over the form.

Hello,

Have been sucked in - am now reading all the recent threads on improving dust collection. Including the Bill Pentz website.

Saw this on youtube a while back and thought it was very clever.

DIY - Bending PVC Pipe with Air Pressure - HenryWitecki.com (Cataclyst) and Chris Powell - YouTube

It may inspire some of you - not sure how well this would work with 6"pvc - might be interesting to try.

Bill

He made that look easy, quite a bit of setup he had gone to.
After my test with 6" pipe yes it would work but the forces involved just multiply up at this size , so unless you are willing to build a setup to handle these, it was too much work for the few bends I needed.

Added some mattress foam from the mattress the I had ready for the tip to the sound insulation and I was surprised at how much the noise was muffled. I will need to now do it neatly as I just stuffed it around the top end as a test. Looking at making a MDF box around it all, This will give back the hard wall space to hang things from at least.

R

Originally Posted by steamingbill

Hello,
Saw this on youtube a while back and thought it was very clever.
DIY - Bending PVC Pipe with Air Pressure - HenryWitecki.com (Cataclyst) and Chris Powell - YouTube

One thing that would be needed is a much longer heater that he shows in the video especially if one wanted to make long radius bends.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

The best 150 mm PVC prices i have found are at Total Eden. Total Eden - Water Solutions Including Treatment, Tanks & Pressure Pumps, Plumbing, Irrigation & Sprinklers
They have branches in all states except Tas and NT.
I have a written quote as follows:
6m lengths pipe $48.36
45 degree bend F:F $12.46
Wye Junction F:F:F $18.50

Well got an up to date quote today from the Nowra store on stormwater pipe and looks like prices have gone up by a couple of dollars here and there so not a biggy.
Since I am considering the CVMAX though and it requires 8" main line, I also got a quote on the 225mm pipe (note they don't make 200mm/8" stormwater pipe - only 225mm, which is closer to 9"). The price of the pipe is a bit more than double that of the 150mm pipe, but the REALLY painful part is the cost of fittings for the 225mm - all upwards of $80 and over $100 for a Y. So if I end up with the CVMAX I will definately be following Russell's lead and making my own joins on the 225mm side at least. I may even consider the wood ducting approach for my main trunk line (see youtube link in previous post to this thread).
So anyone considering a CVMAX class of DC, beware the cost of ducting!

Originally Posted by Oddy

but the REALLY painful part is the cost of fittings for the 225mm - all upwards of $80 and over $100 for a Y. So if I end up with the CVMAX I will definately be following Russell's lead and making my own joins on the 225mm side at least.

Yes, the 225 mm stuff is as dear as poison. I have never checked the price of sheet metal ducting and fittings (HVAC), but it might be worth a look for your main line. The good news is that dropping a 150 mm wye pipe out of a larger duct should not be difficult. All you need is a jig saw and a heat gun. Made some 90 mm branches out of a 150 mm pipe when setting up the band saw, and it was not at all tough.

IMAG0036.jpg

Great thread,
But with all the talk of 15/16" impellars and main trunk line I'm now confused
My understanding was in Australia the 16" impeller was used at 50htz/2850rpm to get the air flow rates the same as in America using 15" impeller at 60htz/3450rpm and as such both required a 6" main line. It was only when you used a VFD and running the 16" impeller at 60htz/3450rpm that you needed the larger 225 main line?
So for Bobl and Chris if I use a 4kw three phase motor turning at 2850rpm and a 16" impeller do I need a 225 main line or a 150 ?

Originally Posted by bsg

. . . So for Bobl and Chris if I use a 4kw three phase motor turning at 2850rpm and a 16" impeller do I need a 225 main line or a 150 ?

I'll leave that one for Chris.

Originally Posted by bsg

So for Bobl and Chris if I use a 4kw three phase motor turning at 2850rpm and a 16" impeller do I need a 225 main line or a 150 ?

BSG, I believe what you say is correct from previous material I have read - I don't believe there is a problem running 6" pipe to a 16" impeller machine (note Corrimal mens shed have their CVMAX running full time - even when all gates are closed), its just that the 16" impeller running at higher speeds than what 50hz supply gives you (i.e. on VF drive) is capable of moving a lot more air, given a larger pipe. So by using the smaller pipe you are not taking full advantage of the machine, that's all. If you have a long run, or you want to have multiple gates open at a time, that's when the larger pipe pays off. Note also on the CVMAX that the inlet is 8" so would need a reducer for 6" and I am guessing probably need to rig up a transition for the 225mm storm water pipe.

Every Max I have had anything to do with has had a recommendation of 225mm, was it always followed? I have no idea. Apricot Tripper a user here installed a Max before I was involved and I can't say what he did as I wasn't involved but I know he is very happy with the result. Is 225mm ideal for either scenario? I doubt it but Bob is the expert on this sort of stuff and will undoubtedly bless us with his thoughts as he always does. Why he hand balled it to me is a mystery.

What I can say is that when it comes to DE ducting theory is overridden by what is available in the way of pipe sizes. The ideal pipe size can be custom made from metal if need be but most would not bother as the result of an installation using a size that is near enough is invariably better than what was being used before the cyclone. BTW, there is an awesome custom installation done in metal within these fora but I can't find it. The poster made the whole thing himself but I can't remember what the actual DE was.

There is some anecdotal evidence from a few users in the US where there is a greater range of pipe sizes available for the HVAC industry that a 15" impeller will benefit from using a 7" pipe and possibly even an 8", that is the sum total of my knowledge on this. I suspect that BP sized his "recipe" to what is commonly available. I could be wrong but it is just my gut feeling that this is what happened. If I am wrong I apologise to BP.

An 1800 running at 60hz flows just on 1000 CFM which as we know is the figure that BP espouses as the ideal. It was this point IIRC that led to a few experiments in the US to see what size would actually flow more and I seem to recall that 7" was used and someone either used 8" or theorised that it would work. in Oz if you were to use a bigger pipe size it could be better utilised by running the impeller faster with a VFD. Users in the US would not generally have the ability to do this as few if any run through a VFD. Actually I know of one and he runs his torrit system at 67hz.

Why anyone would want to run a system without a VFD is a bit of a mystery to me. The cost is a minor addition within the budget of installation and the advantages far outweigh the cost of the VFD. There have been three installations that have had some issues from using the VFD and I am dealing with the last of them now. All have been traced back to outside factors that affected the VFD and in one if the VFD had not been in use the problem would have gone unnoticed.

As to the original question, I would install 225mm as a VFD could be installed later on. The problem then becomes at what impeller speed will it support two ports being open. Remember a Max @ 60HZ needs two ports open in an ideal world and every Max in the US is running at 60HZ. Does anyone in the US actually have a second port open? I doubt it. A Max in Oz if it is not using filters (I only know of one that does) will flow more air than one that does use filters so we get a better air flow result at either speed, or should, than the US if we fully utilise that advantage by having the air scrubbing port built in and open constantly. They have no reason to ask the question and difference between the two speeds so have not done the sums. We have I think only four running at 50HZ within the woodworking sphere. There are a lot more running outside of woodworking and they all run at 50HZ, some through filters and some not. What inlet size they utilise has never worried me as they are doing a very unique job within the mining industry and some are in Mongolia. God knows what speed they are running at.

This is all the sort of stuff that makes what we can do different to the US. I developed this thinking totally independently of what was happening over there due to our climate advantage and they are now slowly starting to utilise some of it mainly exhausting to atmosphere. Some of their installations are now going in with the ability to divert either through filters or straight to atmosphere depending on the time of year. Twelve months ago no one was doing that.

Something else that sometimes leads people up the garden path. If an impeller is not loaded with flowing air as in all the ducts are closed as Corrimal do it is under very little load so closing ducts does not hurt the impeller or motor. Running an impeller without inlet ducting places it under maximum load. You may have seen warnings not to run a Clearvue without inlet ducting as it overloads the motor and that is the reason.

50HZ on a 16" impeller exhausting to atmosphere is a uniquely Australian scenario and no flow figures have been done to my knowledge either on a completed installation or in theory. I haven't answered the question but thanks for reading. I have a gut feeling that it would flow enough to support the 225mm duct.

Well Chris a lot there too digest ...Lots of good info

Just add some pic of some more ducting that been add to my CV install....
A bendy one that come down onto a pair of benches and one to my lathe. Only use this when turn dust and chip making stock.
Still to do is the bench drill, got cut into main trunk for this one. Also the drop saw and belt sander (both are mounted on the same stand) these I am thinking of making so form of cabernet with a vane of some sort to direct the suck????

OK anyone got some suggestion or link re a bandsaw and dust collection. I have made a new table insert with bigger and more hole than the original one. Link here for those who wish to see https://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/mo...1/#post1687782

Still to do is box in the exhaust tube so that I have a solid wall structure good for hanging things like BS blades. Box in top of CV to make neat and hold the sound insulation in place better.

Russell