Thread: Wheelie Bin Cyclone?.

You make some very valid points Pete... specially about tilting the cyclone!

Also here we have large black plastic bags that line the wheelie bin so all refuse is essentially bagged from the bin, (except the green waste that goes to mulching which is a separate wheelie bin as is the recyclables.... i.e.e we get 3 wheelie bins with different colored lids for kitchen waste, recyclables and green/garden waste) when dumped into the truck... double bagging just means 2 bags instead of one...so easy peasy.

Probably the saw dust should go to green waste coz they just chip all garden waste to compost it for mulching - so really the saw dust is just chipped timber - already chipped for them!

Worst case scenario - I wheel it down the street at midnight and put it out front of the neighbors house, so they cop flak for it!

One way or another I'll figure out a way to make this work. If it was inside, or could be seen, (as opposed to in a lean too outside the shed) I'd be tempted to cooper the cylinder and cone from an oak type timber staves, oil finish them and fit polished brass bands etc and make it look like a moonshine still! .

Your right about little rain... we started out drinking sea water - but now our local state govt have decided we will be drinking recycled blackwater from the sewerage system, I kid you not!.

You have no idea how blessed you are in BC, what with all those mountains, snow, and big rivers like the Frazer, Thompson, Skeena et al.

Our only blessing, is we never get tired of shoveling sunshine off the driveway to get our cars out!

Lotta hard work catching steelhead here but!

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Why must the dust collection receptacle sit under the cyclone?

For this sort of arrangement to work you need a rotary gate/valve rotary airlock, rotary valve, offset flange rotary valve, drop in rotary valve, blow through rotary valves, dust collector valves, twin outlet diverting rotary valve, high pressure rotary valves, custom rotary valves at the bottom of the cone, this provides the air lock between the disposal system (wheelie bin/conveyor) and the negative pressure inside the DC system. Without this airlock separation will be compromised. I did a quick google and only looked at the above which are most likely too industrial, at a guess someone will make one suitable for wood dust collection, this sort of valving gives continuous operation and most likely not needed for the average weekend woody, but in principle this is one option to allow reduction in heigt, alternatively a simple gate valve at the bottom of the cone which if opened at the appropriate timing allows the collected dust to fall out of the cone and if the conveyor operated at the same time the dust is transported away, there may be a need to agitate the dust in the cone to get it to move, I know with my 3D length cone if I am unaware (busy machining) of how full my collection box is and the cone starts to fill up, and upon emptying I might need to agitate the dust to get it to move, it can fill right up to the bottom of the central outlet tube before it starts to spit the dust out the exhaust, I know it's full then and got to stop!!! and empty.


Pete

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Then you have not looked far enough and base your opinion on insufficient data as my wheelie bin lid construction is 100 % airtight. I actually have to use a screwdriver to wedge it open by breaking the airtight seal.


Further there is no real need for the impeller to sit on top as mine doesn't. Maybe there is a slight loss of suction, which I doubt, which can be boosted with a cheap in line fan and motor to boost the suction. I use 2 cheap GMC 1 hp units, without bags to boost the system and allow for longer runs.

Adding small blowers in "series" will not make as much difference as one thinks to the typical air flows generated by basic DCs because the limitations are almost always the small sizes of ducting size used by these DCs.

If 4" ducting and a 1HP blower is used the best flow you can expect is ~350 cfm provided no chip catchers or home made cyclones are used. Adding another 1HP blower can add no more than 50 cfm to the flow and adding one more will only add about 20 cfm and adding any more will make no difference.

I measure the flow rates of standard 2HP systems using 4" ducting at no more than about 420 cfm. Adding a home made cyclone or chip catcher will reduce the flow to around 320 cfm. Adding 2 x 1HP blowers will not even restore the flow back to using the DC in stand alone mode. It would be far better to use the 1HP units in parallel even if they only pump at 200 cfm each over the long runs but the cumulative noise would be horrible.

The reality is that single runs of 4" ducting are ineffective at saw dust control and the only time 4" ducting should be used is when short lengths of 2 or preferably 3 x 4" ducting is used to connect a machine like a sander or BS to 6+" ducting that then goes off to a DC.

TT, I can see the wheelie bin is dominating your thinking. With all respect that's a bit like my teenage nephew who wants to build a guitar but is spending 90% of his time on deciding which colour to paint it. I understand what you are trying to do in terms of reducing the height of the unit but you would probably need to scale down the basic height of the cyclone itself if you were going to use a 3HP or less motor on it anyway.

The next thing that worries me is the idea that a simple scaling of something else will work effectively. e.g. the little plastic cyclone jobbie. That little cyclone is designed for completely different pressure regime (ie vacuum cleanerrs) and scaling it up for use with a standard DC blower will result in high pressure losses and low flow rates. The same applies the other way although that is perhaps easier to understand. I saw a large serviceable cyclone sitting (or rather laying) in an old milling yard in the hills. The conical section was about 10 ft high and about 4ft in diam and powered by a 20HP motor and 20" impeller. It also came with couple hundred ft of galv ducting ranging from 6 to 12" in diameter. Apparently it came from the old Waroona veneer factory. The owner wanted two cartons for it. For about 3 seconds I thought about cutting it down in size and powering it with a smaller impeller and motor but then I just had to walk away from it.

To design a DC that produces anything better that todays generally available DC air flows there are basically two choices.
1) apply some basic principles and then go through the build test and modify loop till you get it right - this can take about as long as 2)
2) Study engineering or maths and generate a fluid dynamics model and the go through the model test and modify loop until you get it close, and then go to 1)

I am very happy for you to build your own system and if and if and when the time comes I will even come and measure the flow rates for you.

As for moving the impeller/motor away from the top. My understanding is that BP considered this but given the efficient alternative is a long radius bend of some kind this turns out to be about as tall or taller than using the impeller and motor at this point. Sure one can use a tighter bend (with maybe even wider ducting) and suffer the flow rate losses and is just another choice to make in the design.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Also here we have large black plastic bags that line the wheelie bin so all refuse is essentially bagged from the bin, (except the green waste that goes to mulching which is a separate wheelie bin as is the recyclables.... i.e.e we get 3 wheelie bins with different colored lids for kitchen waste, recyclables and green/garden waste) when dumped into the truck... double bagging just means 2 bags instead of one...so easy peasy.

Probably the saw dust should go to green waste coz they just chip all garden waste to compost it for mulching - so really the saw dust is just chipped timber - already chipped for them!

The pure sawdust and shavings can go into the green but the MDF, melamine and any other manmade has to go in the trash stuff. At least it does here.

The reason the other Pete (pjt) mentioned the airlock for a conveyer or auger is that the cyclone is under negative pressure and any air leaks from that end of things kills the separation depending on the amount of air entering. That is the same reason that bags lining the wheelie bin usually won't work unless you have a way to hold them open in the bin. Small air leaks into the bin like from the axels or the top bin lid seal will cause the bag to collapse. Think sucking on a balloon.

No one said this dust stuff was easy.
Pete

Crikey - its even tougher than I thought.

"To fit the cyclone within the typical 8’ ceiling and be able to get a full 1000+ CFM through a 6” diameter duct, I engineered the air channels, blower, etc. pretty carefully.

~ Bill Pense (Pers com last week or so).

(Bold = My Emphasis)

The damn things designed to fit under a typical 8 ft ceiling according to its inventor.

What the heck are we doing wrong then?

Poking up 2 ft past the 6 ft fence (Total 8 ft) I might get away with, but as depicted in the CV & CVM photo's - the height of the overall unit seems way out of kilter with what the originator intended.

Maybe the dust collectors intended to be located in an underground basement - which largely we don't have here in Oz?.

All I know guys is that something here doesn't add up - height wise!

I get the feeling that we are trying to make the most of something designed for another hemisphere and another type of building code etc.

Bill says he carefully designed it to fit under an 8 ft ceiling - presumably because the collection is below floor level in the basement?.

My suggestion is that for downunder where largely we don't have basements very much (everything built on a concrete slab) that the fluid dynamics modelling should be done to make one that fits into what sheds and workshops Aussies have & use.

I am not one of these people who subscribes to "the yanks know everything mantra".

Clever they may be - but if they were even half as clever as they would have us believe - they wouldn't have some refugee idiot missing from his mud hut in Kenya, running their country - into the ground & a state of perpetual war.

I can't help thinking, that we can do better, is all.

Then again, I am no fluid dynamics engineer.
But I'm just damned obstinate enough to have a go anyways, regardless of the neigh-Sayers.

Bob, - when I cobble something together, I'll get you around to wave the instruments around and see how it performs.

Why does it have to be outside............still waiting on an answer to that which I asked in a previous post.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Something that can get you started and let you earn enough to eventually upgrade to something better.

That's what I am aiming at... a nominal $500 budget and commonly available / parts (like wheelie bins)... and 6 inch PVC...and second hand dustys...

I'd be elated with something like that, over what I have now!

Others mileage obviously varies.

I hear you , Timeless Timber.

I was where you are now seven years ago, using vacuum cleaners and wanting something better. available power restricted me to 2hp single phase. 3 phase was and is right out of the question.

I had a budget too and wanted to make something out of readily available resources and this is what I came up with:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/m...parator-33633/

(I had a different username on the forum back then)

2 x 44 gallon drums and a sheetmetal cone, some MDF, perspex for viewing windows, various bolts, nuts and screws. I built a hardwood frame around it with a lever system giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage to lift the top 44 so the bottom one could be emptied.

The whole thing only cost a couple of hundred dollars, with the most expensive part being the couple of cartons I had to pay my sheet-metal working mate to roll the cone for me. But then in the spirit if true mateship I helped him drink them too.

I have since upgraded the blower to a 2hp and the pipes to 6" which improved its performance incredibly. At least you are planning to use 6" from the start. Back when I did mine the forum's collective wisdom seemed unaware of the limiting factor of the 4" ducting. I effectively gained nothing by upgrading from 1hp to 2hp blower until I also upgraded to 6" ducting.

I acknowledge that this is not the ideal solution, those who advocate CV's and 4hp 3ph motors are definitely correct, but I dont drive a Ferrari either.

Dont let them discourage you from having a go. You will be better off than you are now, and your shed will be cleaner and healthier.

It might not be spotless, and your system wont meet commercial workplace health and safety standards, but then your exposure will be less than a professional woodworker too, unless you are fortunate enough to have 40 hours shed-time a week.

You can also do other things to help manage the fine dust like ensuring flow-through ventilation through the shed or using a few exhaust fans to keep the air changing over for a while (like a few hours or even overnight) after a dust-making activity to get the invisible particles out of the shed before they settle out.

I say give it your best shot with what you have.

Cheers

Doug

Sorry Chris I missed that - I am limited for space inside my shed unfortunately.... if i put it inside I'd have no floorspace to build anything in there. Plus the noise, and I would like to vent to atmosphere if possible.

I've been running round my yard with a tape measure.

The 240 liter wheelie bin is 1100mm tall.



If you take out the 743.7 mm dust collector in the pic above...and insert an 1100 mm wheelie bin under... you end up with....(starting from the bottom & working up) ; -

1100
736.6
475.4
177.8
350.0
Total 2839mm in height!

If my fence is 1800 tall (which I just measured) - then everything from the top of the cone and above will be "visible" (and audible) to my 3 units dwelling neighbors - who's front windows, entry doors are just one car driveway width (~ 2.5 meters) back from my fence.

As far as getting it inside...the shed...

My wall heights are 2700 - so again with a wheelie bin under it @ 2839 - no fit, UNLESS I put it middle of the back wall under the gable / ridge line which is about 3200 from memory.

It WOULD fit under my 2700 wall height inside IF i stuck with the supplied dust receptacle at only 743.7 mm high.

Why so fixated on the wheelie bin?

Well for 20 years of emptying Dusty bags in a wood work factory, the dust allergy problems - jarrah sawdust snot up my nose... etc - the whole idea of emptying a dust receptacle out into another container, frequently, is just repugnant to me... I want something I wheel it out the way, pop another wheelie bin in, and keep working. When you have a power fed machine - be it a thicknesser or moulder etc - while ts feeding stock its making you $. All the time its not - (i.e. when your frigging with dust bags etc) is when your making yourself ill from the dust and not making a $.

So swap over times for dust receptacles to me at least - is wasted downtime.

I guess after 20 years feeding timber thru machines - a shop layout where its a study in time and motion, is where your profits all reside.

If time is not an issue and your a hobbyist - maybe its not such a big issue.

Having designed built and worked in a workshop where everything flowed... the idea of frequently wrestling with the supplied dust bin receptacle is a turn off. Within weeks, I would want to be finding an easier better way. I know me - and I don't suffer inefficiency very well.

Why go to $2.5K worth of expense to collect the dust with super efficiency of a CVM if then getting rid of the collected dust becomes a tiresome chore.

The idea of swapping a wheelie bin and at the end of the day wheeling 2 or 3 away top empty in the garden or place out the front for the truck to take away is simple easy and time efficient... with zero heavy lifting and minimal exposure to the actual dust contents.

The cyclone seems incongruous to me with the dust receptacle is all.

Bobs twigged, that is my big issue... I've handled maybe a few thousand tonnes of sawdust manually in my time - I'm over it!. I'm too old, fat, and lazy, to hump sawdust for fun these days. Maybe 20 years ago it wasn't such an issue - these days I go to the physio once a week to get my shoulder sorted out - last thing i need to be doing is lifting that tin dustbin full of sawdust... or I'll screw up my shoulder and not be able to lift timber with it to work over the machines.

Handling the saw dust product after it's collected is a big issue for me.

I readily admit that others mileage may vary.

I guess for me I wonder "why pay $ for machinery and power to lift the saw dust 8 foot off the ground, only to store it at ground level in a agricultural tin that some poor batsurd (me) has to then lift again? Its already been lifted once... best deal with it on wheels thereafter so it doesn't have to be manually lifted again.

To me that simple ergonomics.

Lift it once and not by manual effort....if you have to lift it twice, then someone screwed up in the design department...is how I view it.

Why do you think all the industrial units store it in a hopper tall enough to back a truck under? So there's zero manual handling!

To me this is a failing in the BP design. I agree the guys a sheer genius with his fluid dynamics flow calculations etc - but in simple "manual handling" his designs a bust IMHO - as far as treatment of the waste product if it has to be manual handled again. Handle it once and do it right is how you make $ in my experience.

Why waste space inside a shed for both the machine and the storage of the dust as well as handle it manually after you've already gathered it -might just as well sweep and shovel it up!

The whole idea of collecting dust is to handle it well...its not just about moving it from one place in the workshop (The machine) to another place in the workshop (the receptacle), where you still have a manual handling problem to deal with.

Even my timber came out of the kiln with a fork and onto dry storage racks - so that it could be slid across the docking bench from the rack and docked to manageable lengths, before you had to then lift it and carry it from machine to machine to process it. It time and motion study... logs came in on the bottom half of the block, where they were sawn - and strip stacked and air dried - then forked into the kiln - and out of the kiln, and onto the dry storage racks - then slid across the docking bench and docked then across the jointer to straighten and square one edge, then thru the thicknesser to gauge and straighten the second edge and then thru the various other machines to process into furniture - then thru the spray booth to finish and then out front into the showroom to display and sell.

Sawdust was something we didn't design or do right - with a dusty's & bags moved from machine to machine around the shop for 20 years - with muggins here being the one who dealt with emptying & replacing bags... I've done my apprenticeship humping sawdust thanks & paid for it with dusted lungs.

This time I want it done right and the CV & CVM don't have the dust handling after its gathered, part of the equation adequately engineered for my liking in terms of manual handling the end product for minimal effort and exposure.

I'm sure it could be done better - I posted a pic of one machine that you wheel the bin in under with lid folded back and it clamps up underneath the cyclone.

If your paying $2.5K for a cyclone - this one doesnt even come with a frame it stands in, you have to make your own attaching brackets to hang it off your shed wall - then sort out some kind of enclosure.. in essence its a bucket of parts from which you make a dust handling solution - but the cost is equivalent with some engineered complete solutions.

I don't think CV & CVM are quite there yet design & engineering wise in terms of handling the final product, I think their numbers stack up from a dust handling point of view - no question about that & Bobs confirmed it every which way but loose....with the specifics of flow rates and volumes etc.

In an analogy - The CV & CVM are a kit engine, in which you then build your own car to operate.

As a kit / parts solution to dust handling - it's over priced IMHO.

If it came unitized with it's own frame/stand, weather proof cabinet, proper dust manual handling solution, and VFD wired in ready to rock and roll - then sure it would be worth the asking $2.5K - maybe even a little more.

Specifications UB-2100ECK UB-3100ECK
motor: 3hp 240v
CFM rating: 2500cfm
filter fitted: pleated cannister
filtration capacity: 1 micron
collection bag type: metal drum & plastic
hose inlet diameter: 200mm with reduction to 100mm
number of inlets: 3
workshop footprint: 1200 x 880 x 2150mm
net weight: 171kg
shipping weight: 205kg

Albeit ths one is no better for final dust handling...but has similar figures to the CV & CVM and costs about the same!.

It at least is free standing / self supporting, in it sown cabinet, plug and play and is only 2150 tall or 350mm (1 foot) above my fence height!

What is it that I'm missing here - with regard to CV & CVM.

Is there at least 1 installed and operating in WA - that I can go listen to and see working? I am having trouble understanding the forum dedication to CV & CVM myself.

I just question it is all. I'm yet to be convinced & thus far am left under-whelmed at the standard of design and completion of the CV & CVM.

I already have the 3 Phase connected - so the cost of that, is not influencing my decision whether to run the CVM or something else...if that makes sense. The idea I have to pay as much as the above Carbatec offering, then build it myself virtually...is making myself wonder about the pricing to be frank about it.

The fact the cylinder and cone is transparent is lovely to watch for 5 minutes until you get bored watching dust go round and round - (I know, I can see it in my household vacuum cleaner and the novelty wears off after 5 minutes) but as best i can see it adds zero to the functionality of the machine....when perhaps it could be made and supplied in sheet metal a lot cheaper and just as effective or some other material and be a lot quieter?

How long does the Plastic remain translucent after it's all scratched inside by the dust?

Why is it thus made from this clear pastic heat molded over metal forms etc? Why are we paying for that? what function does this cost return the buyer?

I am left scratching my head the more I ponder this whole CV & CVM...mutual adoration society forum mindset - when cost versus functionality might be the most appropriate arbiter of value for money IMHO.

I'd like to see it succeed... truly I would....and I'd like to see Chris with a booming and successful business as the Aussie agent.

I just feel as tho it needs some tweaking is all at the least in as far as handling the final product (sawdust) for disposal and weather proof soundproof cabinet / stand.

Its seems I am the only one who thinks this way.. (or dumb enough to commit his thoughts to electrons on the intranet)!

Maybe I just over think things. Did I mention the equivalently priced Carbtec model is 600 cfm greater capacity than the CVM? could that be increased 20 - 30 % with the addition of a VFD unit?

All good questions - no?

And you have to clean filters. Given your dislike of emptying a bin I can assure you cleaning filters is way worse.

Both are depicted with filters Chris. Yours can apparently be vented to atmosphere as I presume the Carbatec model can be?
I'd prefer to not be cleaning filters if it can at all be avoided.

Can I ask if you don't see any merit at all, in anything that I've suggested, about how the CV & CVM might be "improved" so they are better received in the market place?

Can I at least go view one working, and speak with a satisfied customer, here in WA?

I would not like to pass a final judgement on CV & CVM without giving the machine a chance to speak for itself... and listen to an actual owners experiences first hand.

Maybe my opinion would be changed somehow?

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

The fact the cylinder and cone is transparent is lovely to watch for 5 minutes until you get bored watching dust go round and round - (I know, I can see it in my household vacuum cleaner and the novelty wears off after 5 minutes) but as best i can see it adds zero to the functionality of the machine....when perhaps it could be made and supplied in sheet metal a lot cheaper and just as effective or some other material and be a lot quieter?

How long does the Plastic remain translucent after it's all scratched inside by the dust?

Why is it thus made from this clear pastic heat molded over metal forms etc? Why are we paying for that? what function does this cost return the buyer?

I AM NOT THE AGENT FOR CV, I was but no longer. Get me a quote to make a cyclone out of steel, painted and boxed for sale and let me know what it is. You haven't got a clue as to manufacturing costs in this country if you can even get a quote. I hawked it around for six months before I found someone that was even willing to look at it. After that factor in transport to the selling point and add it all up, been there and done that. You are just trying to be provocotive IMHO, go and build something better and sell it.

this is what happens when Marketing stops listening to the End User

"We have decided what you need and you are going to buy it"

Cheers

Doug

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Its seems I am the only one who thinks this way.. (or dumb enough to commit his thoughts to electrons on the intranet)!

You're not alone in that way of thinking.

I also have grave doubts about the arguments and thoughts brought forward from the "Bill Pentz converted or none at all brigade" posters. But to debate these issues I have to be critical of a Moderator and when ever I'm critical of a Moderator my posts get deleted.

So I will stay out of this discussion from now on and play safe.

Peter.

Ps I wonder if this implied criticism will also be deleted.

No idea as a manufacturer about manufacturing costs, after owning and running a manufacturing business for 20 years?

Really - thats the best you can come up with?

This interests me.



I know from what Bobs labored to tell me...- that I can't get the required > 1000 cfm at source from a dusty impeller with 2 or 3 horses behind it!

I accept that.

But what interest's me in the above pic is the steel duct between the blower at the bottom, and the 2 bags!

What would happen if, I took out the Y ducting, and stood it on its side.... and coupled 2 x 3HP Blowers to where the two dust bags are now... and took an 8 inch duct from the leg of the Y where the single blower is now - up to the top of a BP style cyclone?

Would I not then have a double 3 hp Blower (6HP) run on 2 x single phase engines, supplying well over the required 2000+ CFM into the cyclone with 2 x 13 inch impellers supplying the required volume- rather than one big 16 inch impeller?

On it's side with a stand on castors, I'd have 2 horizontal mounted blowers one above the other...thus all the weight down low... 2 x 13Inch Impellers - and probably more than enough volume / flow rate to run the BP cyclone.
Also the cyclone could be mounted on top of a Wheelie bin, and without all the Blower apparatus up top - it would still be low enough not to protrude a long way above the fence.

Why does the BP cyclone have to have 1 x 3ph engine with a 16 inch impeller if 2 smaller ones can deliver the same or more flow & volume?

There are 2 x 2 year old 2HP dusty's on gumtree for $340 bucks. ($170 ea.)
Maybe make a duct to match the one depicted above from MDF... and start bolting the 2 blowers together - knock up a cyclone using BP's dimensions ... and a stand to accommodate the cyclone and wheelie bin and I'm good to go.


Sort of like this...

I don't see 2.5 K in this...
Well if I do - I reckon it will out perform the CV & CVM.
I guess we shall see, lets wait until the fat lady sings shall we?

I've been wrong before -this may not be the last time.