Thread: Wheelie Bin Cyclone?.

TT you forgot or don't know that VFD's don't work on a single phase motor. You need a 3 phase motor. Kind of loose if you buy a cheap dusty and toss the motor to add a new one to put the VDF on. I think you might be better in the end to get a bigger impeller (even a 14" is an improvement) to match the 3 phase and VDF and make the blower housing from BP's plans Bill's Cyclone Dust Collection Research - Blower

Your 2 barrels are only about 100mm shorter than BP's cyclone without the blower on the top. Once you get back a costing from your plastic moulder you might find that you are back to making the BP rig yourself from, sheet metal, lexan or bendy plywood.

Interested to see where you finally settle.
Pete

Any commercial use of BPs (even scaled) design has potential legal ramifications. The only legal way to do this is one of a kind for personal use.

I don't believe so Bob.

BP clearly states on his web site, in that build page you referenced / linked, that he specifically didn't patent his design, and shared it on the web in the interests on improving the health of fellow wood workers after he got dusted lungs himself and a visit to hospital with pneumonia his doctor convinced him this would be the right thing to do - thus I believe open slather is applicable.

This is a different size / scale cyclone designed around 6 not 8 inch in and outlets and lower than BP flow rates, and also based around a 3Hp dusty - rather than his 3 phase engine with 15 & 16 inch impellers.

I believe it's different enough to get away with using his basics and scaling it to suit what the manufacturer already has in the way of drum molds etc - which is what we are kicking around ATM.

I understood a VFD allows a 3phase motor to be run on a 20 amp single phase power socket?

I may yet have to go that route - (swapping the engine on a dusty for a 3 phase &/or even a pulley and belt system, to further spin up the impeller to the speed & thus volume & flow rates, that I'd like to achieve).

If it sucks well enough, I might even call it the Monica Lewinski model.!

Wait 'n see, I'm doing my due diligence/research is all.

I've had dusted lungs already - I'm not keen to go back there in a hurry.

Whatever I do - I will put a lot of thought research and effort into it. It also has to be cost effective... maybe supplying plasma cut alloy cyclone kits will be the answer yet - that's another avenue of research for me to follow thru with a retired naval architect buddy. You buy a flat sheet of aluminium alloy already plasma cut - use a jig saw to release the pre cut panels from their release tabs, roll and mig weld together!.

Probably have the wheelie bin lid & clamp attachment arrangement included with the 6 inch chip collection hole pre cut!. Any inlet and outlet transitions already cut and folds marked...

If I can weld a aluminium boat together with a mig from a flat pack kit, a cyclone shouldn't be impossible!.





It's another option I'm considering.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

I don't believe so Bob.
BP clearly states on his web site, in that build page you referenced / linked, that he specifically didn't patent his design, and shared it on the web in the interests on improving the health of fellow wood workers after he got dusted lungs himself and a visit to hospital with pneumonia his doctor convinced him this would be the right thing to do - thus I believe open slather is applicable.

That's worth knowing.

I understood a VFD allows a 3phase motor to be run on a 20 amp single phase power socket?

A VSD and small motor will run on a 5A lighting circuit provided the motor it's running needs less than 5A. I have three 1.5 kW VFDs that run on a 10A circuit.

Whatever I do - I will put a lot of thought research and effort into it. It also has to be cost effective... maybe supplying plasma cut alloy cyclone kits will be the answer yet - that's another avenue of research for me to follow thru with a retired naval architect buddy. You buy a flat sheet of aluminium alloy already plasma cut - use a jig saw to release the pre cut panels from their release tabs, roll and mig weld together!.

That does sound like an interesting prospect.

After reading Bobs link about manometers.... I am left scratching my head - to the point it now looks like Phyllis Diller on a bad hair day!

And I rediscovered the chart thingy - as well - which has sent me back to the drawing board as well...

I am wondering after all this, why Bob hasn't yet built a cyclone... to show us how its done... he has all the gear to make just about anything - the knowledge of what will work and won't and the equipment & knowledge to then, measure and evaluate it!

Because we are both located in Perth, Bob - we could work together on something, if you've a mind too? (i.e. make 2 of them, one each).

I would like to do the very best that can be done if possible.. the fiberglass route is an option admittedly.... however my prowess with fiberglass isn't what it might be. I am left wondering how many might go down that route?.

(What became of the molds?. Has anyone else knocked one up from them etc?).

So many questions.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

After reading Bobs link about manometers.... I am left scratching my head - to the point it now looks like Phyllis Diller on a bad hair day!
And I rediscovered the chart thingy - as well - which has sent me back to the drawing board as well...

Yep - it's a tad confusing.

I am wondering after all this, why Bob hasn't yet built a cyclone... to show us how its done... he has all the gear to make just about anything - the knowledge of what will work and won't and the equipment & knowledge to then, measure and evaluate it!

The reason I haven't done this is because at this stage in terms of the small amount of woodwork I do I don't think need one - I only empty my DC plastic bags about 2 times a year and even then they are only about half full. A short ducting length 3HP DC is sufficient for what I do. More significantly I am lucky in that I have access to measuring gear so that I have a good idea what the particle counts levels are when I do something so I can quickly determine if 800 cfm or even 600 cfm are enough.

Because we are both located in Perth, Bob - we could work together on something, if you've a mind too? (i.e. make 2 of them, one each).
I would like to do the very best that can be done if possible.. the fiberglass route is an option admittedly.... however my prowess with fiberglass isn't what it might be. I am left wondering how many might go down that route?.

I need more projects like another dose of the flu (I'm on my third one this year) but I'm happy to perform any measurements on prototypes that you might construct. I can also help with motor and VFD stuff if needed. If I was to build a cyclone I would probably just build a BP type unit. I don't have 8ft under the location point either but would look at solving that problem another way.

No worries - I'm happy to box on.

Ive located a used 3 Phase dusty... with 16 inch impeller, It is 5 hp, 50 hz, 2850 rpm.

I figure a VFD will spin it up to 60 htz

It hopefully will give me similar figures to the BP...dusty - it's produced for Ron Mack Machinery.

Romac SF005 Dust Extractor

4200 cfm capacity

At $750.00 2nd hand, it's a bit steep for my budget...but I have the 3 phase already so it seems like that's the way to go.

Hopefully if I can duplicate the BP Cyclone and manage to merge it with a wheelie bin, I will get somewhere close with the blower mounted down near the ground.

Time will tell.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

No worries - I'm happy to box on.
Ive located a used 3 Phase dusty... with 16 inch impeller, It is 5 hp, 50 hz, 2850 rpm.
I figure a VFD will spin it up to 60 htz
It hopefully will give me similar figures to the BP...dusty - it's produced for Ron Mack Machinery.
Romac SF005 Dust Extractor
4200 cfm capacity
At $750.00 2nd hand, it's a bit steep for my budget...but I have the 3 phase already so it seems like that's the way to go.

Hopefully if I can duplicate the BP Cyclone and manage to merge it with a wheelie bin, I will get somewhere close with the blower mounted down near the ground.

Time will tell.

Be careful as it could still be an old design.
If the impeller housing is not designed with a spiral geometry it won't quite generate the pressures under load you would expect from a 5HP/16" impeller.
I would also want to look at the impeller itself to see it's design and how it was made.
If the impeller and the impeller housing are not OK you are effectively paying $750 for a 5HP 3 phase motor .
The last 3 phase 5HP motor I bought cost $35 and I see quite a few of these going for ~$50.

If it was me I would buy it and use it as is, add the VSD and you'd have an effective dust control system for your size shed.
This gets you up and running and you can dream about cyclones all in good time

Yes, it's a tough one Bob.

New the units sell for $1800

So 2nd hand at $750 is "reasonable" but as you say if its housing and impeller design isn't exactly what I need - its a lot of $ for spare parts!

Ronmac got back to me with limited details

SF 005 , Twin Bag Dust collector ,14” steel impeller, 5hp/3phase/50 hz, 4500CFM,4 X125mm dust outlets
This unit features several collecting and filter stations.

Designed especially for middle working environment .suitable for large amounts of coarse sawdust and mixed or fine dust.

Steel impeller is balance and cured for optimum air velocity, noise reduction and protection against wear .

PRICE $ 1,800 Plus gst

I could as you say just hook it up and go and add a cyclone at some later point.
With a VFD - and @ 60htz - presumably it would pull 5400 CFM..... which ought be more than ample even without cyclone.
Located outside in a lean too and insulated / silenced, I MIGHT get away with it (maybe).

See how it goes $$$ wise, if I can raise that in a hurry - anyone need a spare kidney?.

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Yes, it's a tough one Bob.
New the units sell for $1800
So 2nd hand at $750 is "reasonable" but as you say if its housing and impeller design isn't exactly what I need - its a lot of $ for spare parts!
Ronmac got back to me with limited details

SF 005 , Twin Bag Dust collector ,14” steel impeller, 5hp/3phase/50 hz, 4500CFM,4 X125mm dust outlets
This unit features several collecting and filter stations.

Designed especially for middle working environment .suitable for large amounts of coarse sawdust and mixed or fine dust.

Steel impeller is balance and cured for optimum air velocity, noise reduction and protection against wear .

PRICE $ 1,800 Plus gst

Humm . . . . . more manufacturers er . . . .. lets be polite a call it "overstatement".

A 5" duct at about 10" of WC can only pull about 800 cfm so 4 of these = 3200 cfm assuming the impeller is up to it.
However, a 14" impeller (even a good one) at 2850 RPM might pull 1600 cfm if its well made, so at 60Hz it might get close to 1900 cfm
Also the 5" junctions at the input to the impeller are very poorly designed so it will be less than this

Now bear in mind you will have to use 8" ducting (more $$) to achieve this if you only use 6" you will never get more than about ~1300 cfm.

None the less its still worth $750.

Tough to know much about the impeller design etc Bob, the owner of the 2nd had one pictured thinks it might be 16 inch...(Manufacturer says only 14 inch) so he seems to be a bit optimistic too!.

The manufacturer does say 14 inch.

Can't tell much from the photo - and I'd have to drive to Busselton to go look at it myself. Maybe i can do 2 jobs at once and buy some sheoak while I'm down there to make the diesel worth while.

Just gotta sell a few things first, to fund all this!

At the moment, I am single handed propping up gumtree purchases ATM, I think... but the new big boys toys are all finding their places in the new shed...

I have more power boards and extension leads - than a spaghetti factory.

Bye the time I get everything where I want it - and the sparky comes back to do my lights and power points, I'll know where they all have to go from my amateurish efforts, at least.

In the meantime I'm making a laundry cabinet & toe rail...

Today I managed to fry the little old vacuum cleaner I was using to suck dust off the TS!

The missus will be impressed next time she goes to clean out her car, and it no worky worky - All the white smoke stuff that powers it 'escaped'.

Back to square 1.

Such is my Zen journey!

G'day Timeless
when I started to build my cyclone I contacted chris and bought my 16" impeller from him.
I bought a brand new 4kw 3phase flange mount Teco motor on Ebay for $50.
The design of the blower housing and cyclone body came from Bp's site.
I did go overboard and made the body from 1.5mm sheet (took 2 days to form the top and cone for the cyclone).
From memory all up it cost around $500 for sheet metal, motor and impeller. With the impeller being the most expensive part.
you can have a cyclone for well under clearvue's prices you just have to build it yourself
Brett

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

Tough to know much about the impeller design etc Bob, the owner of the 2nd had one pictured thinks it might be 16 inch...(Manufacturer says only 14 inch) so he seems to be a bit optimistic too!.

The manufacturer does say 14 inch.

Hi TT
I would guess it is a 14" impeller in a 16" housing by looking at it
Cheers Rod

Hopefully Bob & I will take a look at one tomorrow - maybe take some measurements even...so we know what we are dealing with.... rather than guessing.

So many options...and considerations...

I thought (briefly, admittedly, while in the shower this AM) about 'coopering' the cylinder and cone each separately, from solid sheoke stave frames...each routed out & rebated to take clear perspex or glass even windows siliconed in from the outside, so you still get to watch the dust circus inside, polish up the sheoke and add some polished brass straps on the cylinder and cone.... and try to make room inside the shed so that it becomes "a feature of the workshop" (Maybe have the blower outside in its own lean too and just plumbed to the top of the cyclone).

Even contemplated making a sheoke slats wheelie bin......(Maybe spin some sheoak wheels for it even - with pneumatic tyres off a bag trolley) as my matching collector.

Would make in "interesting" project... I even dreamed about making a plug, and then making my own sheoak ply's and cold molding it... in 3 diagonals of separate ply's...the way old cold molded bondwood ply boats were laid up...over a plug.



Amazing the complex convex and concave shapes that can be put into timber ply's if your keen enough (Flared bow and tumble home around the transom above being but two examples).

I was thinking it might make an interesting "how to" thread as the project progresses - but heck - what if I don't live long enough to complete it and where do i put all the sawdust in the meantime...

The idea of seeing it stood in a corner looking for all the world like a polished up wine barrel, or bootleg moonshine whiskey still, for some reasons catches my imagination.

Then I slapped myself upside the head for dreaming, the sheoak alone would probably cost a grand (or more)....not to mention the time, effort, perspex etc.

I could do it.... but why?...

Why invest that much time into a cyclone when I could just buy one or make one out of metal or aluminium etc and get on with making things.

It would be pretty spiffy but then who but me would get to see it, tucked away inside my shed?

It would keep me off the streets (and the internet) for a good while tho....

Instead of coopering it out of sheoak, maybe polished aluminium standing in the corner of your shed.
Aluminium 0.5 x 900 x 900mm Plain Sheet - Bunnings Warehouse
probably not the right thickness but????? Mmmmm polished aluminium more milk vat than whiskey still but very purty all the same