Thread: New Workshop Setup

Originally Posted by andrew7

Next on the list is dust control. I have just been reading about the risks associated with dust which has me a little freaked out!

Freaking out about any tool use is not the right way to tackle any tool use risk and may lead to as many problems as not doing anything.

I have been looking at the 2-3hp dust collectors and how to fit them however it looks like its not possible to vent outside as advised in the forums due to neighbours, kids etc...

When we talk about venting outside we're not talking about dumping the entire guts of the DC outside. What is vented is the residual air that contains the very finest invisible dust that is carried away on the lightest of breezes and being warmer than outside air will rise very rapidly. Venting outside is not an excuse to mistreat or cut down on filter servicing etc - you absolutely will still need to do this often to maintain flows. Sound levels can be controlled with a muffler or few hundred dollars to levels less than that of a pool pump. The prime reason for venting outside is leaks - hopefully most of the time the air coming out of the vent will be cleaner than what is already out there but if your DC leaks it won't fill your shed in minutes with fine dust. It's far better that it leaks outside - same as you don't have a sewage overflow point inside your house. Most of the DCs I have tested have some leaks due to poor servicing. If it is done well the external vent should be less noisy and polluting than a kitchen range hood exhaust fan.

Would it be enough just to use a dust collector with a good pleated filter and a good respirator?

The are are no hard and fast rules about what is "enough" as it depends on things like what processes, tools and materials are used, and the volume of throughput.
It's only really possible to state what best practice is and it is up to users to decide if they can match this
1000 CFM at 4000 FPM inside ducting (can only be done using 6" or larger ducting, or 3 x 4" independent ducts)
DC venting outside avoids problems with leaks
Venting point outside is as far a possible away from shed entrance so the stuff doesn't come back inside the shed.

Also can you connect the big dust collectors to the dust ports on routers, orbital sanders or do you still use a shop vac?

I used DCs on my tools with 4" flexy but many people find that too clumsy.
The reason I do that is I have tested far too many VCs and even the most expensive ones eventually become contaminated and can end up churning out more fine dust than the often collect. IMHO Shop vacs are the devil and should be vented outside or a cheap one can be used inside a sealed chamber that is vented to the outside by a DC.

I guess the other option I have is too not fix up the table saw and just buy a track saw instead. Then use it and the rest of the tools with a good vacuum ( fein and dust deputy) This would cost about the same and could then cut mdf etc outside.

Dust extraction on a TS can be done better than on any other type of saw.

Also the shed is 7m x 9m with 3m walls with a 5m wide roller door.

IMHO that's not even a 3HP DC shed, that's a 4HP shed

BTW if you use MDF the only way to practically manage the volatiles from the MDF is to vent outside - that stuff goes straight through fine filters and is not nice.

Many thanks for the help and advice!
I had a bit of a think about it and it will really put my mind to ease doing things the right way. My wife agrees : )
I'll start looking around for a more appropriate DC as well. Suggestions welcome...... ... please
These seem to be popular? clearvueoz.com.au – CVMAX Cyclone

Originally Posted by andrew7

Many thanks for the help and advice!
I had a bit of a think about it and it will really put my mind to ease doing things the right way. My wife agrees : )
I'll start looking around for a more appropriate DC as well. Suggestions welcome...... ... please
These seem to be popular? clearvueoz.com.au – CVMAX Cyclone

Not just popular but extremely effective.
Don't forget to allow ~$500 for ducting and for a dedicated 15A powerpoint/Circuit breaker.

All the available evidence suggests that the best DC solution for small to medium sized sheds is the Clear Vue ... but I own one, and so am biased. I did a lot of research and got advice from many people before figuring out that BobL was the only guide I needed, along with the stuff on Bill Pentz's site. However, the Clear Vue is not the cheapest option. The best seldom is.

My set-up, including the VFD, cost a little over $2,500, plus ducting and flexy. The Clear Vue was the only machine that combined excellent air flow with a very small footprint, no filters to block or clean and no need for 3 phase power. In my shop, 3 phase power would have cost as much as my cyclone, so the VFD was a very cheap fix. If I'd gone for a 3 HP dusty I'd have bags to empty and filters to clean and would have needed to build a shed for it outside the shop to avoid leaks putting dust into the shop and to avoid the superfine particles that get through the filters. This shed made a 3 HP dusty more expensive than a Clear Vue, which has a tiny footprint and easily fell into my shop. The 3 HP unit, by comparison, is huge. It gobbles up a lot of space that I did not have.

As Bob says so often, even a great system like a Clear Vue will be choked by poor guards/ports on machines, or by poor duct design. If you would like to see some of my modifications, go to Making 150mm DC ports for workshop machines I am indebted to BobL for a lot of advice on these subjects.

Finally, getting a Clear Vue Max rather than an 1800 like mine is worth considering. It allows you to have at least two six inch ports open simultaneously. That means that you can be operating a machine and at the same time have an overhead port open to clear the air in the shop of any tramp dust that might be floating about. If I had my time again, I'd likely get the Max with a VFD, however, as you will see in the videos, the 1800 with a VFD running at 60 Hz is no slouch. Be aware you need to make the main line of your duct 8 inches rather than six, dropping down to 6 inch lines to each machine, and this 8 inch duct adds to the cost.

Yes I was initially put off by the price but when put into perspective ie my tv cost $2500, my stereo $4000, my photography business equipment....... a lot!

So its not at all bad given the peace of mind it offers. My kids (11 & 12) are very keen to do some work as well so I want to do the best by them.

Sorry what is VFD? Also I thought the clear vue was 3ph so thats a saving for me right there So its should be powerful enough for my big shed then?

Bob you mentioned it was ok vent outside with filters but what about the clear vue with no filter?

Looks like a winner to me so far, just need to iron out some details i guess. Installation worries me a little but I saw a short video on youtube where it looked simple enough.

Many Thanks!

Originally Posted by andrew7

Yes I was initially put off by the price but when put into perspective ie my tv cost $2500, my stereo $4000, my photography business equipment....... a lot!

Yep - I cannot understand this sometimes - that folks have 10's of $k in their shed and their dust control is maybe $100. It reminds me of the eejet student that ran into me. He had a $12k car with zero insurance - coulda bought a slightly cheaper car and had enough for at least 3rd party.

So its not at all bad given the peace of mind it offers. My kids (11 & 12) are very keen to do some work as well so I want to do the best by them.
Sorry what is VFD?

A VFD is a Variable frequency drive. It ls a small box of electronics that converts single phase to 3 phase AND does a heap of other things like "slow start" the impeller motor so it can be run from a 15A single phase circuit, and allows the operator to change the AC frequency so a 3 phase motor can run at different speeds. It allows the operator to operate the motor at 60Hz instead of 50 Hz generating 20% more flow, if only a low flow is needed (ie just venting a shed) it can be run at less than 50Hz and that makes it real quiet.

Also I thought the clear vue was 3ph so thats a saving for me right there So its should be powerful enough for my big shed then?

Yep

Bob you mentioned it was ok vent outside with filters but what about the clear vue with no filter?

correct - no filters are needed.

The following is not a health risk just a nuisance, remember that all externally vented DCs will pull air in from the outside of the shed. On windy dry days, outside air will be generally dustier. When this air is dragged inside a shed, by a DC that vents externally, the air speed slows down and some of that dust may settle out of the air so your shed may still become dusty. Like I said, just nuisance value BUT if you want a clean shed for finishing then you might need a room air scrubber.

Brilliant, looks like a great low maintenance solution. Will give them a call next week to arrange.

The following is not a health risk just a nuisance, remember that all externally vented DCs will pull air in from the outside of the shed. On windy dry days, outside air will be generally dustier. When this air is dragged inside a shed, by a DC that vents externally, the air speed slows down and some of that dust may settle out of the air so your shed may still become dusty. Like I said, just nuisance value BUT if you want a clean shed for finishing then you might need a room air scrubber.

I personally wouldn't bother with this but would it help to add simple filtered intake vents for the shed. I suppose the shed would have to be pretty air tight for this to be effective. Scrubber is probably easier I guess.

Originally Posted by andrew7

Brilliant, looks like a great low maintenance solution. Will give them a call next week to arrange.
I personally wouldn't bother with this but would it help to add simple filtered intake vents for the shed. I suppose the shed would have to be pretty air tight for this to be effective. Scrubber is probably easier I guess.

Yep - yep and yep.

Originally Posted by andrew7

Installation worries me a little but I saw a short video on youtube where it looked simple enough.

Know how you feel. Had a little trepidation as I approached assembly of my cyclone and motor, but it turned out to be pretty straightforward. The only issue I had was deciphering the nuts and washers on the hanger assembly. The pics in the instructions (at the time) were terrible, but I worked out my own assembly sequence. Feel free to give me a yell if you get stuck anywhere.

Even for an electrical ignoramus like me the wiring is dead simple, but I hired a sparky to hook up the motor and VFD to ensure I was covered for insurance purposes ... and lived to regret it. He either did not know the difference between star and delta (unlikely) or he overlooked that small point and left the motor hooked up the wrong way. He also left the premises with the motor running backwards. Thankfully that took all of a minute to fix.

Have fun! Once you get everything running the way you want, your shed will be clean and you will breathe clean air. Once my cyclone was in the biggest dust producer was the shop vac, so I moved it outside under a hood and ran a 50mm PVC line into the shop. It works a treat ... quiet ... plenty of suck ... and no superfine dust in my shop. For details, see ... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/e...p-vacs-171737/

I agree with John, Once it is all together its a brilliant dust collector. I think its fair to describe it as a kit but if you are more clued up than I was it will go together pretty easily. Just make sure you have enough extra hands to help with lifting the motor/impeller unit onto the stand - I didn't and the resulting smash as the unit hit the floor was not pretty. A short delay while Chris shipped a new impeller from the US.

From my experience so far I am sure you wont be sorry if you take the plunge.

Cheers

Originally Posted by BobL

.
.
A VFD is a Variable frequency drive. It ls a small box of electronics that converts single phase to 3 phase AND does a heap of other things like "slow start" the impeller motor so it can be run from a 15A single phase circuit, . . . .

I've seen this quick and dirty description several times on this site and it has irked me slightly and here I go saying it myself!
To clarify;

1) Not all VFDs convert single to 3 phase power, the vast majority of VFDs are 3 phase to 3 phase. For power requirements of about 5kW or greater they are all 3 phase to 3 phase.

2) A single to 3 phase VFD may not need a 15A Circuit/plug to function. What may need the 15A Circuit/Plus is the device that is connected to the VFD.

3) VFD's come in different power ratings (eg 750W, 1500 W, 2200W etc) but this is not the power drawn by the VFD (which itself uses relatively little power). A 750 W rated VFD can safely power devices up to 750W and can safely run from a 10A circuit/GPO. Even higher power rated VFDs may be able to run from a 10A circuit provided the total current drawn by the device does not long term exceed 10A.

Excellent all good info!

My brother in law is a sparky and a clever guy as well so should go smoothly.... hopefully. Will have no hesitation to jump on here if a problem arises

Is there any particular brand of VFD that is better/cheaper to look out for?

Thanks guys you have made the this process much easier than expected!

Originally Posted by andrew7

Excellent all good info!

My brother in law is a sparky and a clever guy as well so should go smoothly.... hopefully. Will have no hesitation to jump on here if a problem arises

Is there any particular brand of VFD that is better/cheaper to look out for?

Thanks guys you have made the this process much easier than expected!

As there may be warranty issues (with the Clearvue) I would use the one recommended by Clearvue.