Should WW Forums have a position on dust hazards and practices?

[BobL]

First up I think it is fairly obvious that I have a vested interest in this but if you track my posts on this stuff I was aware of it a long time before I became involved in Clearvue.
. . .

The vested interest issue is always a problem. The other is the infernal growing rash of belief that everyones opinion on any topic is just as as valid as everyone else's so it doesn't matter what one does or believes. What this leads to in dust control is a bad case of the blind leading the blind.

[Gunnaduit]

One thing first: I do recognise and gratefully acknowledge the contribution of Bob, Mini and others to providing good advice to me over the past few days of my rapid learning curve, and I can see they have been doing this altruistically and patiently for others as well, for some time. I also recognise they might be more diplomatic than me!

IMHO I would be happy to go with Groggy's suggestion of a FAQ, and may or may not be happy about it "not necessarily expressing the opinion of the admistrators or moderators", if that is how WWF see it. I would think it important that it is prominent on the Dust Extraction sub-forum.

It would be a way to keep moderator interference out of threads and posts, which I did not, and would not, have advocated anyway (sorry if my reference to the electrical warning might have created that impression).

An issue would be, if WWF administration is not managing it, who does get to manage it? Even if the original aim was to provide conventional, internationally accepted advice on respirable particle health risks and hazard reduction practices, plus its translation into home workshop terms, what would be to prevent a faq on building a shopvac for your jointer? Such a faq would clearly not satisfy respirable particle hazard reduction, but nobody would want a fight over it. There has to be some kind of gentleman's agreement that the health and safety crowd get to play in their own corner when they want to.

Remembering that the aim is not to cajole, impel, ban or in any way force those who aren't interested in health and safety to modify their behaviour; but rather the aim is to provide the option of good accessible information to newcomers or other interested people, after which they can choose to do as they wish.

[BobL]

Another under rated dust/fume issue is that associated with metal work. e.g. I reckon welding fumes are worse than wood dust but I wonder how many work places (let alone sheds) even have fume hoods or adequate ventilation when welding.

My shed is sort of "L shaped" with front and back doors at the front and back corner of the "L" . My welding bay is at one end of the "L" so it is poorly ventilated. Even with both doors and windows open the air inside eventually becomes a thick blue colour and it gets into my clothes hair and skin. Longer term a grey layer of soot eventually covers everything in the shed. I have used my DCs while welding but the constant large air flow noise is mildly irritating and it made the DC bags sort of sticky and I had to wash them more or less after . A cyclone would be much better than using bags but large airflow noise would still be present. All that is really needed for welding fumes is a few hundred CFM to ventilate the fumes and stop them filling the shed an making a mess.

For a couple of other reasons, like I wanted to restrict the scatter of grinding grit and sparks while I was metal working I very recently made a small welding bay/fume hood for my shed. I also reckon I might have found a very sensitive way to test it using a smoke detector.

I put the smoke detector at the highest part of the shed ceiling - that's a 6 m horizontal distance from where I am welding. With the fume hood off I used the welder and listen to the detector go off within about 30 seconds. Repeat now with fume hood on. Last sunday I tried this many times and found I could weld more or less continuously for 4-5 rods and the smoke detector would not go off. This good result result was confirmed by the standard black booger in the shower test which was much improved over the usual. How's that for a highly quantitative scientific determination?

[noty]

Hello all,
well, what a topic for a campfire on a very cold night. To me all the forum is doing is providing the table (or campfire) we all sit around. Hardly be held responsible for the conversation over it. And I think in a sense this thread answers its own proposition. Guidelines in the making, being kept up to date by many interested people. Taking into account the many, many different situations we work in. ( I am in the bush so I shoot my chips (not all the dust unfortunately, BobL )way out from my shop-good for the composter and garden). So for me I would rather see the topic lively debated and moved on from here. If someone wants to know more, then like you Gunnaduit, they do what you did. If most of us here know of someone getting into woodwork with machinery the dust health issue quickly comes up. I am not saying get rid of all the useful scientific info at all. I suppose I am saying keep it here in the conversation.
Cheers,
Tony.

[Ashore]

I totally agree with Gunnaduit
Ban all posts that don't carry a large notice saying

Dust is Dangerous

and then we can move on those woodturning smokers who drink too much Tea, yep it's way to go , we have a mission here to save the world , well those that don't know as much as Gunnaudit and me anyway. All these poor fools need to have proper guide lines in all these threads, so every thread should be submitted to a moderator to proof read and correct before their posted , I mean what else have they got to do.

As for you electrical question Gunnaudit
"Hey guys, just before I sign off on this thread, can you please tell me how to wire a 240V wall outlet myself? I've bought this GPO from Bunnings, and I'm wondering if I've got this right: Red house wire goes to Active, Black house wire goes to Neutral and Green/yellow wire goes to Earth. What if I swap the
"red and black? I can't see the electricity, and I've never been electrocuted yet, nor has anyone else I know, so it should be ok, shouldn't it?"
Reversing the Black on the back of a GPO will not cause a problem to most appliances you plug in to it , but if the GPO is a SP rather than a DP switch there is a safety issue if the item is plugged in and switched off if you dissamble the unit, though industry guidelines say are not allowed to do that to any item plugged in ................Gads we need another large notice on the start of any thread about repairing tools , like replacing bearings etc that the tool has to be unplugged,

Oh Gunnaudit , if you live in Japan then the red is the earth , , this isn't for you though cause I rekon your in Australia , but for those members who post here and don't come from Australia, you know countries that have diffren't wireing or dust standards, still we'll only use the Aussie one cause were always right , ay mate.

[Gunnaduit]

Ashore, I don't think you got me right.

1. As I say, i DON'T think the big letters warning notice in someone's post is the way to go. I said, quote unquote, it was a stupid idea.

2. Like many people on this forum, I actually don't care too much about anyone else's health either. What I had a problem with was being ripped off, being sold equipment that wouldn't do the task of keeping me healthy.

3. But, I can sympathise with anyone else who like me, needs to be tipped off that most of the ideas for dust extraction here on WW Forums, and most of the equipment sold, won't provide a healthy woodwork environment. That's a courtesy I think should be extended to newcomers. Hence my suggestion. But beyond that, I don't care what people do either.

4. As to the electrical warning, if WW Forums isn't concerned about anybody's health and safety; and look, if that's the majority viewpoint here I'll just go along with it, why bother with electrical warnings? It's neither WWF's problem nor their concern. If the electrical warning is there because doing your own wiring is illegal, why does the forum tolerate any post on soliciting information about how to go about illegal activities at all? WWF has a no p#rn policy, what about a no illegal activity policy? What a weak position, just putting up a sign saying this activity is illegal. Just zap the post, end of story.

So don't get the idea I want to interfere in or care too much about your health, I don't. Like you don't really care about mine. Let's be frank, even if it does sound fairly offensive, that's the reality, isn't it, in bloke culture. But as a courtesy for newcomers, they should have the option of quickly finding out that most of the forum content about dust extraction will not solve their health concerns, if they have any, and give them pointers to information that does. Or to put it more constructively, they should have the option of easily and quickly finding out what they need to know about safe woodworking, if they want to know. Common decent courtesy, mate, that's all.

[Jim Carroll]

Have any of you read this put on the forum for all to see.

[BobL]

Have any of you read this put on the forum for all to see.

I looked through that list when I first joined and while it is a handy reference list of potential health issues, apart from saying to consider getting a DC it doesn't say much else about how to reduce the risks associated with wood dust. It also suggests using a respirators and yet the list clearly shows that most common health condition is dermatitis related - something a respirator does very little for. But let me not waste any more words on how limited masks are and like DCs the poor practices followed by most mask wearers.

Statements like " In Australia all wood dust is now classified as carcinogenic (liable to cause cancer)" also don't help either, because I don't believe this has been arrived at by comprehensive testing or studies. I think these claims are made as backside covering statements.

[Gunnaduit]

Hi Jim, thanks, yes I have come across that list of 'bad woods' on the forum. I don't believe it would have helped me to understand either the need for, or the requirements for, a dust extraction setup that would stop most, or ideally all, respirable sawdust (the <10 micron, including <1 micron) from entering my respiratory tracts. Bad woods, good woods, any of it.

Unfortunately I don't see that information on any WWF static page. All I can say is, flowing against the tide of opinion here on WWF, I am glad that some forum members actually did drop in on my original post (on another thread) to alert me that my original proposal was not going to do that. I don't think that WWF can rely on just a few members to carry that burden the whole time,especially as there seems to be a level of abuse flung at them when they go out of their way to help others. Sad.

[Groggy]

I posted an offer to assist earlier that doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. The basics required for this discussion are already available. For any member who participates in these forums there are rules and warnings posted here.

For those who have not read them, here's a relevant snippet:

"Considering the real-time nature of these Forums, it is impossible for us to constantly review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we (the owner, Administrators and Moderators) are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of the Forums owner, Administrators and Moderators or any entity associated with these forums. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email or through the Report Post icon . "

There are a limited number of volunteer moderators on these forums, none of whom have more information or expertise available than the members themselves. We follow the guidelines set down by the owner of these forums and are not here to read and pass opinion on each and every post. You cannot limit this request to just dust collection, it applies to any number of other tools and sub forums that can potentially affect health as well - sorry, but we unpaid and untrained moderators refuse to take responsibility for that.

Where members take the time to report a post the moderators also take the time to consider its merit, occasionally the forum owner is consulted to see what his 'policy' might be. This particular dust collection issue has never been reported but I can say with some certainty the forum owner would never agree to it.

Participation in the forums is done cooperatively by the members and admin do their best to stay out of it, we are moderators, not editors. Where it becomes apparent to the members that something is needed (perhaps warnings or FAQs), the admin will happily assist with this, and have done on numerous occasions in the past.

So, if you want this - do something about it! Organise to collect the information and make a pre-purchase informational checklist or whatever and the admin team will be happy to assist with placing it in a prominent position and make it a sticky.

[Gunnaduit]

Groggy,

So, if you want this - do something about it! Organise to collect the information and make a pre-purchase informational checklist or whatever and the admin team will be happy to assist with placing it in a prominent position and make it a sticky.

I am happy to contribute to this idea. Anyone else?

[Groggy]

Right then, good! If people would like to post in this thread items they think are important (and factual, not opinion) I will collate them into a FAQ for the Dust Collection forum.

Try to keep the statement succinct and provide a supporting link where possible, no-one is going to read war and peace.

Something like:

Topic header
A brief description of the issue associated with the header. Then provide a supporting hyperlink if you have one.

[BobL]

Try to keep the statement succinct and provide a supporting link where possible, no-one is going to read war and peace.

I'll kick off.
"the most comprehensive DC site on the web". Bill's Cyclone Dust Collection Research - Home Page

Bill's one page blogg/summary is pretty good for those that don't want the W&P version
http://billpentz.blogspot.com.au/

[Gunnaduit]

Thanks Groggy, Bob
- Agreed, it has to be short. Links can go off to further info.
- Agreed, it has to be reliable, factual info from credible sources.
- Let's assume that all sorts of people will read it, not just the regular in-house crowd here.

I'd suggest three main sections (always willing to go with better ideas, though):
1. What are the hazards of wood dust exposure?
2. What are the requirements for wood dust hazard reduction?
3. What are some examples of best practice in home workshops?

And somewhere early on we need to make the points that:
- Your health is your own responsibility, you need to make your own decisions as to what is right for you
- Wood dust exposure hazards are cumulative; that is, the more you work with wood over your lifetime, the higher the risk.
- The right solution for you will depend on your personal circumstances

I might look at setting up a Wikipedia article on "Occupational hazards of wood dust", which would facilitate international input on topic 1 above; then we can link.

[richmond68]

This good result result was confirmed by the standard black booger in the shower test which was much improved over the usual. How's that for a highly quantitative scientific determination?

good enough for me Bob

I find the amount of info about dust somewhat overwhelming, and figure that most hobbyists just have to do the best they can within their situation and their means. I'm not sure that WW forums can or should formulate a hard and fast position on dust collection, because from the end user's perspective it's just not that simple. While I'm grateful to have resources like Bill Pentz to refer to, and the knowledge of participants here, that can only help up to a point. Bill Pentz might suggest you need 5hp, a 14.5" impeller and 6" ducting, but that isn't always achievable. The US EPA specify dust limits suitable for 8hr a day exposure for tradespeople, which might mean little to the weekend hobbyist.

All a forum like this can do is for its particiapnts to provide whatever information they can about the hazards, and let other users do what they can with that info and adapt it as best they can in their own situation. Those that have an obvious interest, like BobL and mini, just keep being there to answer our questions! Apart from that, it is better that as individuals we approach the relevant authorities to improve legislative standards, so that at least the collectors offered for sale have to meet a relevant, repeatable standard airflow measurement.