Should WW Forums have a position on dust hazards and practices?

[BobL]

This is a pretty simple summary of the risk taken from BPs Blog and metricated for the younger Aussie . . . .

"Woodworking makes about 750 g of fine [i.e. invisible] dust for every 50 kg of sawdust. It takes less than two tiny thimblefuls, which is less than 5 g to cause a typical two car garage shop to fail an EPA air quality test. Just slapping a dusty shop apron or hand sawing 175 mm of 19 mm thick stock generates enough fine dust that a typical two-car garage will fail an air quality test. Even hand planning nice curls generates considerable fine dust. In other words the exposures are huge and the risk is large, so all should do our best to protect ourselves from too much fine dust exposure. "

I think this says more about the strictness of the EPA test than perhaps the risks involved but it still shows we are "showering ourselves with more dust than we should".

The 750 g of invisible per 50 kg total is why 100 % visible extraction is about as useful a test as my welding fume booger test. BTW the 750g/50kg depends on what is being done. Sanding MDF can make as much as 35 kg per 50 kg of fine dust.

[Gunnaduit]

The point about the information potentially being overwhelming is valid. To begin a faq, we will need to pull in some links in order to demonstrate that the sparse information provided in the faq itself is credible; also to provide 'further reading' if anyone so chooses.

Which resources do we link to? Bill Pentz is fine, but for some it won't be their cup of tea as we have already discussed. I can provide a selection of links, which we could then sort by preference and choose what we like for the faq, but I am hesitant to do so, for the very reason that an initial 'pick and choose' work-in-progress phase will inevitably be misinterpreted and draw comments that it is all too hard, too much, an invasion of a bloke's right to do what he likes, oh right the OH&S nazis have arrived, see I told you it was all BS, etc etc etc.

So is there a better way to proceed?

And of course to reiterate: those who don't believe health information is necessary, listen up: nobody will try you cajole you, force you, ban anything, judge anyone, inspect anything or whatever. It is information for people who have an interest in their health. If that is not you, then this is not your business.

[m2c1Iw]

Gunnaduit,
The thread title caught my eye as dust control and woodworking interests me on many levels from attempting to keep a relatively tidy workshop while being mindful of the "Code" that is never trust a bloke with a clean workshop to the what I regard as obvious health hazards.
Now as for the hazards the controls vary from PPE to engineering controls such as dust extraction systems and each woodworker must decide for themselves how much time and money they will commit.
It's my belief the forum has and continues to perform a valuable service in warning woodworkers in fact when I first joined the various threads on the subject soon alerted me and encouraged me to do something about protecting my health.
References to the work Bill Penz has done is important because it provides plenty of information and anyone spending time reading the history and purpose on his site must acknowledge the lengths he has gone to quantify the risks and provide advice on dust control for the home woodworker. In addition BobL's many many posts on the subject that provide both words of caution and authoritive advice on control methods in my mind again provide to even the most casual member plenty of information.
So should the forum go further well I think the issue is more than covered however I would encourage you to continue and with Groggy's assistance it may well prove to be a very worthwhile excercise.

Cheers
Mike

[Gunnaduit]

I'd have to agree that the forums are lucky to benefit from the dedication of Bob and Mini, in particular, for contibuting to many of the threads that touch on this issue. And it is so true that we all benefit from Bill Pentz's work and dedication too.

You're also right that really serious dust extraction is for the really serious woodworker, in the shed for hours a day over many years; these are the ones who without good DE would otherwise have long-term exposure to high dust levels. The casual woodworker would make their own judgement on whether it is important to them or not. Maybe they would still be interested in things like external venting rather than an indoor DC that just recirculates dusty air. I guess the thing is to get the balance of advice right where the risks and responses are not overstated.

But I don't think Bob, Mini and Bill P. have won the argument yet. The shops are full of DC equipment that doesn't cut it, plus I would argue the market is flooded with false and misleading advertising on the capability of these machines. Also, WW forums does have a lot of posts showing off dust solutions in a positive light that just don't deal with respirable dust, so mainstream amateur woodwork practice isn't all the best.

When OPs who are showing off their equipment start saying "I know this doesn't deal with respirable dust so it won't suit everyone, but here is my setup" instead of "Boy, I just got rid of all my dust with this vacuum cleaner / this 1HP dusty set up next to the machine" then we'd be getting somewhere.

I'd suspect a lot of visitors to WW Forums don't actually ask questions themselves, you can usually see some 'guests' who are viewing pages. A static faq page (a sticky) might be of more benefit to them than it would be to us chattering regulars (because we ask questions and float ideas, they don't). If they come across the faq it might give them some food for thought when they're reading the retailer's claims.

[BobL]

But I don't think Bob, Mini and Bill P. have won the argument yet.

I'm highly skeptical an FAQ on the topic will make much difference because of some pretty large forces.

- The dust we're talking about is invisible
- Most WWWW spend less than 1% of their DIY budget on PPE on greater risks than WW dust
- Like smokers, most WWWW don't think it will happened to them
- General skepticism about over ambitious OSH oriented people and systems (I'm also one of those)
- Many WWWW have already expended all they are going to spend on their DC

The shops are full of DC equipment that doesn't cut it, plus I would argue the market is flooded with false and misleading advertising on the capability of these machines.

This is no different to lots of other misleading PPE equipment claims. Ear muffs that claim 85dB noise reduction come to mind.

Also, WW forums does have a lot of posts showing off dust solutions in a positive light that just don't deal with respirable dust, so mainstream amateur woodwork practice isn't all the best.

The Forums have a lot of posts showing mods and practices etc in a positive light e.g. guards removed from machines (I'm one of those).

If we have an OHS FAQ sticky for Dust we should then have one for every Forum about associated PPE and safe working practices. Now that will really set a cat amongst the pigeons.

[Gunnaduit]

Well, why not? Nobody has to read safety faqs if they don't want to. But by having safety faqs, WWF is promoting a safe working environment. What can possibly be the objection to that? I can't see any downside, everyone is still free to do as they want.

The only thing is, it's just the DE sub-forum that has the energy and the reason at the moment to make one. It could be years before the intarsia sub-forum contributors make a safety faq (watch out for those x-acto knives) - in fact, I wouldn't think it would ever be a big priority for them, and since nobody is forcing them to do anything, they'll probably never do it. Dust is the hazard for which poor awareness exists.

[Grandad-5]

This may be a good time for me to butt my nose in if I may, because in all likelihood, I’m typical of the type of WW’er you guys are trying to reach with your message.

Dust control to me is a question of keeping the shop nice and clean and free of sawdust. Nothing more. If I were to install a DE, it would no doubt be one of the bag ones because that’s what I associate with DE. I may well put it outside but merely because there is nil room inside and it would be quieter.
Because that all sounds too hard I’m looking at various shop vacs at present because they are a) affordable, b) compact & c) I thought they would do the job.

Now, as a direct result of this thread I have learnt that it’s the particles I can’t see that do the damage.
I’ve also learnt that the effect is cumulative and that a bagged DE inside the shop is actually quite useless.

You haven’t totally convinced me yet that I should treat this matter as a top priority before all else but you all have certainly got me thinking about things.

As a user of these forums, I would be unlikely to see a FAQ or sticky because I tend to use the New Posts function exclusively. If however, such a FAQ was referred to on a thread, as the article you posted BobL was, then I would read it. As I did with your article. I’ve discovered I learn as much, if not more from these links in threads as from the thread itself.

So, as feedback from someone fairly typical of your intended audience, I say keep going.

[Gunnaduit]

Thanks GD-5, for your sincere thoughts. What you say figures with me.
Ian

[Groggy]

It may be worthwhile considering two FAQs: one for theory and definitions that should remain fairly static (pardon the pun) and the other for equipment and set-ups that will change reasonably often. A lot of sites describing dust filtering and chip collection tend to confuse the two and end up doing neither well.

From what I have seen over the years, the primary confusion in this area comes from the use of terms without any thought. Vacuums and dust collectors are generally chip collectors to keep the shop tidy. dust filtration is another thing entirely and perhaps this would be the best first step for new woodworkers.

[BobL]

It may be worthwhile considering two FAQs: one for theory and definitions that should remain fairly static (pardon the pun) and the other for equipment and set-ups that will change reasonably often. A lot of sites describing dust filtering and chip collection tend to confuse the two and end up doing neither well.

Good idea.

From what I have seen over the years, the primary confusion in this area comes from the use of terms without any thought. Vacuums and dust collectors are generally chip collectors to keep the shop tidy. dust filtration is another thing entirely and perhaps this would be the best first step for new woodworkers.

Agree 100%. The confusion comes about because all vacuum cleaners and Dust collectors will "collect" (even some invisible) dust so they can be technically called dust collectors.

However, the problems are
1) All Vacuum cleaners and small DCs cannot collect enough volume of air and do cannot collect enough fine dust fast enough from larger machinery.
2) Most vacuum cleaners and dust collectors that vent inside a shed will vent almost all of the invisible dust back out into the shed.
3) Vacuum cleaners cannot normally be located outside a shed because they have severe restrictions on duct length due to the narrow ducting used at source and sometimes thereafter.
4) Some (not cheap) vacuum cleaners with specific well designed tool shrouds and (real) HEPA filters can work well and capture most of the fine dust with small power tools.
5) Many (cheaper) vacuum cleaners and DCs leak so it is not a good idea to locate a blower inside and run a duct to the outside. The pressurised side of the system including cheaply made blowers will leak fine dust into the shed.
6) The venting location outside a shed is important - next to any open door and window is almost as bad as venting inside the shed. It needs to be on outside wall opposite to the wall with a major opening to the shed.

[Gunnaduit]

1) All Vacuum cleaners and small DCs cannot collect enough volume of air and do cannot collect enough fine dust fast enough from larger machinery.
2) Most vacuum cleaners and dust collectors that vent inside a shed will vent almost all of the invisible dust back out into the shed.
3) Vacuum cleaners cannot normally be located outside a shed because they have severe restrictions on duct length due to the narrow ducting used at source and sometimes thereafter.
4) Some (not cheap) vacuum cleaners with specific well designed tool shrouds and (real) HEPA filters can work well and capture most of the fine dust with small power tools.
5) Many (cheaper) vacuum cleaners and DCs leak so it is not a good idea to locate a blower inside and run a duct to the outside. The pressurised side of the system including cheaply made blowers will leak fine dust into the shed.
6) The venting location outside a shed is important - next to any open door and window is almost as bad as venting inside the shed. It needs to be on outside wall opposite to the wall with a major opening to the shed.

Looks like the start of a faq, Bob. Short and simple like we want it.

Groggy, sounds good. One sticky for the reasons, one for a showcase.

[Groggy]

I will most likely have a go at this over the weekend. Anyone else have comments?

[Waldo]

Yeah, let's have warnings about Ozzito and XU1 stuff as opposed to better quality stuff while we're at it.

[Grandad-5]

Yeah, let's have warnings about Ozzito and XU1 stuff as opposed to better quality stuff while we're at it.

Whoops, sorry Waldo, I'm going to have to disagree with that sentiment. Or, is that said with tongue firmly implanted in cheek? If that is the case, please forgive my ramblings.
There is in fact, a place for cheap tools. Depending on what you intend to do with them and how long you expect them to last both of those brands can provide good value for money. I've never owned an Ozito but I have an XU-1, and it was good for what I wanted.

If instead, it was stated that a good DC should have the following specs.....Able to move X CFM, able to filter particles less than X microns etc etc, then upon asking the correct questions of the cheap tool on offer, one would immediately see it was not up to the task and therefore a waste of money.

Cheers
Jim

[Waldo]

It was said with tongue in cheek.

In seriousness, if the move is to say, "Let's cover backsides", because of a, b and c then let's shut down the idea of forums as their place is to discuss ideas, ways etc., but to say this is how it should be attempted or be scared of giving opinions on how it has to be done for fear of litgation then it's all losing the idea and value of what the forum is.

If it is, then every section/grouping etc. within the forum should first be headed with a disclaimer that eg. chisels can cut, maim or kill and how you have to use them, and before you can read anything in that forum you have to check a box that you've read the disclaimer - but maybe we have to all have some security eye scanning device fitted to our computers to ensure we actually have read the disclaimer.