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  1. #1
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    Default Stabilised Huon Pine

    I have 3 pieces of Huon Pine that I have vacuum stabilised in Cactus Juice. Is anyone interested in making something from them ? (ideally a pen or knife maker) and returning one of the resulting pieces. Also I need to know if the stabilising process worked effectively and how easy the timber was to work.
    In other words, I will post them to you, you make me something nice, post it back, tell me what it was like to work and you can keep the remaining pieces.
    Pieces are roughly 25mm thick and 150mm long.
    May have some more in the near future as I'm looking at some Jarrah with really defined fiddleback and some lacy she-oak


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  3. #2
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    Given its oily nature, its almost impossible to stabilise properly, not to mention contaminating your stabilising resin in the process.

    What was your process?
    Neil
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    Standard process as explained on 129 You Tube videos that I watched (that number may be a bit conservative)
    1. Heat the wood using a small oven at approximately 100 Celsius for more than 24 hours (lovely smell of Huon Pine filling the shed and hopefully a significant part of the VOC's in the wood escaping)
    2. Measure weights of each piece at various stages to determine moisture levels
    3. Place in Cactus Juice under vacuum controlling the vacuum level until bubbles cease (around 2 hours)
    4. Leave soaking in the juice for twice the bubbling time (I soaked for 24 hours, not for any particular reason)
    5. Bake in the oven for 24 hours at 100 Celsius (wasn't sure of the time I should have baked for so figured the longer the better at a slightly lower temp than recommended)
    6. Scrape off foil and offer on Woodwork forum to find out if anything worked



    Bit concerned that the Cactus Juice may be contaminated, any idea what the contamination effects are? Am hoping that most of the Huon Pine oil was released during the drying process (weight reduced by approx 10% but this was probably all moisture), also planning on treating some Black Heart Sassafras in the near future, any comments/advice?

    Also a lesson to others, nearly all the YT videos I looked at used American timbers and the process is fairly simple (see above) BUT there are obviously significant differences when using this process with Australian Timbers not least of which is getting the resin into our dense hardwoods.
    One Australian user spoke of two weeks under vacuum to impregnate hardwood burls while American users report less than 24 hours (and typically around 2 hours) for their timbers.

    As far as the blanks I offered go, this will be a learning curve for us both and we can post our results here as an opportunity for others to learn from our mistakes/efforts

    Wow such a lot to learn

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    Dave, I'm happy to have a "suck it and see" go with one piece, but there could be someone closer to home.. The length of 150mm is sufficient for two Sierra pens, but only for one pen with a lot of the styles. If that sounds OK I'll PM my details. If you don't try you don't learn

    Cheers, Gary

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    Thanks Gary, PM me your address and I'll post the timber over
    Cheers
    Dave

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    Thanks for the post Dave.

    Your result looks good and your technique seems very thorough to me. The proof will be in the turning & appearance (absence holes voids and ease and quality of finish. Yes, this is a specialised area and made more complex by the many variables (wood, resin, equiment techniques etc)

    In years past I did a little stabilising (with low viscosity epoxy and some acryllics like MMA, experimentally mostly and long ago) but its worth learning from those like Neil here who have done a lot.


    I still have 2 laboratory vacuum pumps and Vac Lab dessicator which I was hoping to use one day. (Probably never will now.) I was planning on stabilising woods for tool / knife handles, pens etc. But my world suddenly collapsed and so did my stabilisation plans.

    My interest and "skill" (of sorts) is more in species and the chemistry of the woods which I have studied. As for Huon Pine it is rich in oils (these confer odour and durability). These components are largely phenolic in nature and phenolics influence the drying (polymerisation) of some glues, polymers / finishes used with such woods. The result is slow drying or bonding and tacky surfaces. Having said that, you have made considerable effort with heating to remove these HP volatile oils by long oven heating. (Q: Does this degrade crack the wood much?) Some comments for what they are worth you may wish to consider follow:

    Putting hot wood, while its HOT, under vacuum should remove the remainder of the wood oil, or should do. The water in wood will be long gone. In fact the water in wood helps remove the oil in initial drying (kind of steam distillation). Your weighing as you do, until weight is constant, is good practice IMO. Maybe this technique is probably only necessary with oily woods (eg HP, camphor laurel, US black walnut etc). Neil would know.

    Putting wood under vac as you do in the CJ should remove most of the air in wood cells wood without contaminating it with any remain wood oil. Other chemicals in some woods are less volatile and can remain influencing resins, glues, colour and finishes as does the heating. Applying vac a few times while wood in in CJ may be necessary (unless you have a gauge and ensure there are no leaks) Loss of vacuum can come from leaks or vapour pressure of residual volatiles. Some tiny bubbles I found are persistent ie stick to wood and refuse to rise, therefore can return to where came from!.

    Good drying essential and using the lowest viscosity resin is important for penetration into dense woods with fine pores. Time I have read is an important variable but don't have experience with it. Too much cooking is not always good.

    If you succeed with HP most other less oil woods should be a breeze! But the dense inland acacias (some are oily) and eucalypts will be challenging. Remember heating can degrade wood colour and if that can be done in an inert atmosphere, or better lower temp and vacuum, that would help reduce wood oxidation/ colour changes (from heat and oxygen)

    Perhaps the above is of little use, so take it or leave it but hope its helpful. Good luck!

    Eugene

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    Thanks Eugene and Neil for your very helpful advice
    I'm always amazed at the depths of knowledge that is available on these forums and so freely given by, often, very busy people.

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    Still a couple of pieces left if anyone is interested

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    1. Heat the wood using a small oven at approximately 100 Celsius for more than 24 hours (lovely smell of Huon Pine filling the shed and hopefully a significant part of the VOC's in the wood escaping)
    2. Measure weights of each piece at various stages to determine moisture levels
    Drying the wood must be done >100C, it must be above the boiling point for water at all times, I use 110C any my ovens then vary from 105-115C). If your over was set at 100, then you were drying probably max 50% of the time. The time of 24 hrs is a rough guide for pen blanks and US timbers, Aussie hardwoods can take 10x longer. Thicker and/or larger pieces of wood will also take longer (I have had some pepper grinder blanks 80x80x400 in desert hardwoods take weeks of 24/7). But process the same, keep cooking at >100 until timber stops loosing weight, for greater than 1 hr (but 3 hrs for Aussie hardwoods, they seem to level out for up to 2hrs before taking off again)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    3. Place in Cactus Juice under vacuum controlling the vacuum level until bubbles cease (around 2 hours)
    4. Leave soaking in the juice for twice the bubbling time (I soaked for 24 hours, not for any particular reason)
    Must allow timber to cool in sealed bag before placing in CJ. If put in hot it can set off your CJ in your vacuum chamber. If you don't put in a sealed bag it will immediately absorb moisture again.

    Keep under full vacuum until bubbles stop, ensuring you rock your chamber from time to time to help remove trapped bubbles. I have never all the air removed in 2 hours. Buck eye burl pen blanks, that are very light and porous took around 6, but again Aussie desert hardwood can take weeks. There is a lot of debate however on the usefulness of vacuuming for that long, if the timber is that dense why bother etc, and I tend to agree but knife makers want it done properly. I know of a few knife suppliers that do it for extended periods, set the CJ, then do it all over again (ie vacuum/soak/set).

    Soaking is recommended 2x vacuum time for US timbers, again for Aussie desert timbers I use 4x (min). I actually do a lot before I go on my trips around Aus, so they are soaking until I come back, one trip was 13 months. I keep them in a wine fridge, costs less than a normal fridge, plus normal fridge can then be used by house sitters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    5. Bake in the oven for 24 hours at 100 Celsius (wasn't sure of the time I should have baked for so figured the longer the better at a slightly lower temp than recommended)
    No. Cooking at 100 will be too hot and cause excessive bleed out. The instructions for CJ say 80-96C. The time necessary is for the core of the wood to reach that temp for 6-8 minutes. So small blanks I leave for an hour, larger blanks 3-4 hours. You cannot however overcook the CJ, and once the reaction has started you cannot restart it, so it's better to leave it too long than not long enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    6. Scrape off foil
    Actually the foil is only needed if you are stacking your blanks in the oven and they are touching. Personally I stack them without touching and don't bother with the foil to save the trouble of getting it off again. With very porous blanks however (BEB, Banksia, Corn Cobbs etc) I do wrap in foil to try and retain as much of the bleed out as I can. I often double stabilise these types of blanks (ie vacuum/soak/cook) to maximise the resin uptake.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    Bit concerned that the Cactus Juice may be contaminated, any idea what the contamination effects are? Am hoping that most of the Huon Pine oil was released during the drying process (weight reduced by approx 10% but this was probably all moisture), also planning on treating some Black Heart Sassafras in the near future, any comments/advice?
    You cannot evaporate oil, so cooking to dry will not remove oil. Some people boil their wood to remove oil, but I don't bother, the oil is the wood's natural water resistance. Huon Pine doesn't rot and is water resistant without stabilising, so there is really no point stabilising it, but the oil is a good reason why not to. Note stabilising helps the wood be water resistant, but NOT waterproof. Stabilising only stops wood movements due to changes in moisture, if done properly, it DOES NOT stop temperature movements.

    Oil contamination can make your CJ gel, it can also stop your CJ from setting properly, similar to oil CJ. Best way to test it is doing the shot glass test (ie fill a shot glass with CJ and cook it, if it does not set, it's stuffed).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
    Also a lesson to others, nearly all the YT videos I looked at used American timbers and the process is fairly simple (see above) BUT there are obviously significant differences when using this process with Australian Timbers not least of which is getting the resin into our dense hardwoods.
    One Australian user spoke of two weeks under vacuum to impregnate hardwood burls while American users report less than 24 hours (and typically around 2 hours) for their timbers.

    As far as the blanks I offered go, this will be a learning curve for us both and we can post our results here as an opportunity for others to learn from our mistakes/efforts

    Wow such a lot to learn
    So many young people love making videos but unfortunately so many have no idea, that goes for wood turning/wood working etc, and stabilising. You have to be careful, there are only a few I trust, that starts with Curtis (God when it comes to stabilising).

    Yes our Aussie hardwoods can be a pain due to the density, as I have mentioned in some of the replies above. It is a learning experience like anything, I have had the experience of knowing Curtis from before CJ, and there were many a late phone call (the guy never sleeps) talking about experiments (we were both trying to develop a hobby stabilising resin, he got there first, so I gave up and followed his lead). I'm still learning.

    I don't get on these forums as much as I used to, I run too many FB Groups these days.

    Good luck with it.
    Neil
    ____________________________________________
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  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dai sensei View Post
    Soaking is recommended 2x vacuum time for US timbers, again for Aussie desert timbers I use 4x (min). I actually do a lot before I go on my trips around Aus, so they are soaking until I come back, one trip was 13 months. I keep them in a wine fridge, costs less than a normal fridge, plus normal fridge can then be used by house sitters.
    Lot of great info there Neil! I'm curious on the extended soaking, I recall a (Casey Martin or maybe Zac Higgins?) video where he said he lets the wood soak for up to several weeks and he noticed an appreciable amount of Cactus Juice being absorbed during this extended phase.

    Would it be better to leave it under vacuum for the soaking period, or release the vacuum?

    cheers, Ian

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dai sensei View Post
    Drying the wood must be done >100C, it must be above the boiling point for water at all times, I use 110C any my ovens then vary from 105-115C). If your over was set at 100, then you were drying probably max 50% of the time. The time of 24 hrs is a rough guide for pen blanks and US timbers, Aussie hardwoods can take 10x longer. Thicker and/or larger pieces of wood will also take longer (I have had some pepper grinder blanks 80x80x400 in desert hardwoods take weeks of 24/7). But process the same, keep cooking at >100 until timber stops loosing weight, for greater than 1 hr (but 3 hrs for Aussie hardwoods, they seem to level out for up to 2hrs before taking off again
    Lots of good (tested and proven) methods / advice provided by Neil. Dry wood is essential its obvious. From my own experience, with wood chemistry, wood oils, using polymers and lab methods, using vacuum for drying and other uses , some constructive ideas follow.

    One relates to ovendrying of wood (to remove water). Rate of wood drying varies according the its dimensions, how its been cut (orientation of grain as moisture drying occurs longitudinally along the grain or growth) and wood species and cell structure. Heating in an oven at over 100 or 110 C for long periods works BUT at what price? What about cracking and colour changes (oxidation)? Maybe these are unimportant to stabilisers? This applies to extended high temp. heating for drying before CJ soaking. Are there ways to reduce temperature, heating time and oxidation of wood? Yes there is

    Because you guys use vacuum, you may try drying using short term heating / drying cycles under vaccuum. Benefits should be:

    - much more rapid drying to constant weigh because water boils and evaporates at low temperatures under vacuum. In labs, food and pharmaceutical industries, evaporation and dehydration is done at low temperature (warm, room temperature or even by freeze drying). Benefits if applied to wood wood are less heat-induced degradation or wood colour / changes and better removal of wood oils (some more volatile than others depending on their chemistry). Wood oils are also much more volatile under vacuum.

    Eugene

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    Further to comments made above...

    - cooking temp to trigger polymerisation of CJ .. again, lower temperature the better and whatever the resin requires to set it at the lowest temp. Temp and time apply.. as Neil noted to reduce bleeding out and ensure thorough hardening internally. Wood oils and chemicals can influence this eg phenols and quinones (as in Huon and Walnuts). Too much or too high cooking also changes wood colour a valuable attribute of many woods.

    As for the "soaking in CJ" … purpose of the vaccum applied is to remove air from the dried wood pores. Higher the vac the more air is removed as bubbles get bigger and float to surface where they break. But foaming needs to be controlled as stated by Neil. This removal of air is slow it seems and that may be unavoidable. BUT once air is all removed and air is admitted, the Air Pressure is what pushes the CJ into the pores. This movement of resin into wood doesn't happen under vacuum, that is just to remove air in pores. Migration into the wood by resin is slow and a function of pore size, resin viscosity and distance it moves in (ie wood dimensions, grain orientation etc). If CJ is warm (eg like in Qld) it may stabilise wood better than in Tas (where temp is cooler). Migration of resin in therefore should be done in warm conditions to reduce resin viscosity and with full air pressure or higher if possible.

    Some resins I used were monomers (eg mono methyl methacrylate, MMA) which would boil under vacuum, a limitation as it reduces the air being removed from wood. Epoxy resins are much less prone to boiling of components under vacuum a big advantage. But they are more viscous ("thick") at room temperature than MMA. US stabilisers used MMA a few years ago when I used to send wood blocks to US before Australian stabilisers appeared

    Eugene

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    Thank you Neil and Eugene
    Such a wealth of knowledge and experience. You've certainly saved me from making some expensive and time consuming mistakes.
    Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarggh View Post
    Lot of great info there Neil! I'm curious on the extended soaking, I recall a (Casey Martin or maybe Zac Higgins?) video where he said he lets the wood soak for up to several weeks and he noticed an appreciable amount of Cactus Juice being absorbed during this extended phase.

    Would it be better to leave it under vacuum for the soaking period, or release the vacuum?

    cheers, Ian
    As Euge has indicated, the vacuum needs to be off for it to penetrate. My guesstimate of 4x vacuum time for soaking Aussie hardwoods was based on monitoring the level of the CJ during the soaks. It is quick too start, but then slows considerably, and 4x was where I couldn't see any visible reduction anymore. The amount it absorbs between 2x and 4x was minimal however


    Quote Originally Posted by Euge View Post
    Lots of good (tested and proven) methods / advice provided by Neil. Dry wood is essential its obvious. From my own experience, with wood chemistry, wood oils, using polymers and lab methods, using vacuum for drying and other uses , some constructive ideas follow.

    One relates to ovendrying of wood (to remove water). Rate of wood drying varies according the its dimensions, how its been cut (orientation of grain as moisture drying occurs longitudinally along the grain or growth) and wood species and cell structure. Heating in an oven at over 100 or 110 C for long periods works BUT at what price? What about cracking and colour changes (oxidation)? Maybe these are unimportant to stabilisers? This applies to extended high temp. heating for drying before CJ soaking. Are there ways to reduce temperature, heating time and oxidation of wood? Yes there is
    The high temperatures are not used on wet or green wood, only those that are dry already, in fact I don't use those temperatures until the wood is seasoned and around 6%MC. At that point I find it doesn't really crack any more. Getting it to 6%MC is the hard part and varies depending on how wet/green the timber is to start with. I often start drying in high humidity (ie with bowls of water in the oven) at 40C, then slowly increasing the temperature by 5-10C every couple of days, only removing the water after 50C. This is similar to the way the pros do it in the kilns.

    I haven't found any additional problems with colour changes due to oxidation following my own procedures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euge View Post
    ... you may try drying using short term heating / drying cycles under vaccuum. Benefits should be:

    - much more rapid drying to constant weigh because water boils and evaporates at low temperatures under vacuum. In labs, food and pharmaceutical industries, evaporation and dehydration is done at low temperature (warm, room temperature or even by freeze drying). Benefits if applied to wood wood are less heat-induced degradation or wood colour / changes and better removal of wood oils (some more volatile than others depending on their chemistry). Wood oils are also much more volatile under vacuum.
    Yes drying can be done with vacuum, indeed the newer kilns used in industry are vacuum kilns. The biggest issue for me is the vacuum pump oil gets contaminated by the water. This isn't an issue as such, after all the vacuum pumps we use are for vacuuming water out of vacuum lines (refrigeration/airconditioning etc), but you must then change your oil after every use. The oil is a highly refined mineral oil and not cheap. I've just found it more economical for me to use the heat to dry properly, after which the oil in the vacuum pump can last months of continuous use.
    Neil
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    Default Help

    This is great information and I am embarrassed to ask for more when you've been so helpful but I have a fairly major problem (I think).
    System I am using is the cheap ebay version with a small vacuum pump, cooking pot, acrylic lid and gauge and valves. After about 20 minutes of use the 15 mm acrylic lid cracked in two pieces, supplier refunded enough to buy a replacement lid of 20 mm and this is the result of 18 hours under vacuum, the great majority of the time with the vacuum pump off. The cracks are very much surface cracks on the underside of the lid and don't appear to be more than 1mm deep (more stress fractures than cracks)

    IMG_20201030_111615.jpg
    So the questions I have are


    • Am I running the pump for too long at a time? (if I turn it off the bubbles slowly stop after about 20 minutes and then restart quite strongly if I turn the pump back on even though the gauge doesn't show any difference in level of vacuum. But I'm afraid of leaving the pump running to maintain this higher rate of bubbles evacuating in case the lid fails altogether)




    • Can a cheap vacuum pump produce more vacuum than the system is designed for?




    • Is it just a crappy system?

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