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12th December 2015, 06:28 PM #31Retired
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Surely, in the vastness and breadth of men's sheds, community groups, forges, metal works, jousting tourneys down to knitting clubs this must have been covered.
Does not the national body (if they exist) for such volunteer activities have an opinion that can be relied upon? Surely some old QC or legal mind has posited these questions?
It seems bluntly unreal that some part time dude (our own famous BobL) can be held personally responsible for the actions of some monkey who decides that a tablesaw can be safely operated by using a screw driver as a push stick?
Really?
Would a court, been shown just how staggeringly stupid and utterly insane such an action was in the first place, backed up by the absolutely inevitable violent kinetic event that follows of said screw driver meeting a rapidly rotating blade would find someone ELSE responsible? What judge would say "this man should have been told NOT to put his hand UNDER a spinning drop saw blade?"
Surely, if a man/woman of 60 or 70 years old (I'm generalising for dramatics) NEEDS to be told such things, then they will never learn? If it hasn't been learned after a full lifetimes experience, then surely they never will? Do we really need to take responsibility for a 65 year old as if they are a mere child?
We are not talking subtleties here. This is not some complex abstract thing - its the users own hands, face, fingers and eyes.
Perhaps 20 letters to various large clubs would sort it out? Find out directly?
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12th December 2015, 06:56 PM #32.
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Just for starters, given the behaviours you describe, a ratio of 15 to 20 shedders to one supervisor is IMO not reasonable. By accepting the task you are sticking your neck out.
There is also at least one "assistant supervisor" ( usually the main shed coordinator) or a substitute, present at every session.
Mostly there are and additional 1 or 2 other members present who act as supervisors on other days.
Only one person is the daily designated supervisor and that's me on Fridays and I don't go on any other day as I can rarely get much work done there and I am more productive in my own shed..
That's part of the problem, we have a lack of experienced supervisors because some experienced members don't want to supervise.
There is no accepted safe working procedure - see below.
Gory posters and written warnings and turning the power to a machine off are all completely ineffectual if those things only occur on the Fridays that Bob L is supervising.
It has to be one set of rules that are enforced every day of the week by every supervisor.
Instructions were provided verbally during the induction process but there was too much verbal info provided at the induction for the members to remember it all.
I suggested SOPs for all machinery be made available before the new shed opened and we stick by these.
This is not a big deal as AMSA provide these for most machines.
This was voted against by the committee as too dracomian!
A few months ago someone tried to cut some HSS with the metal cutting BS so now SOPs are back on the agenda but that was some 3 months ago and still nothing has happened.
I could go on but that is enough.
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12th December 2015, 07:38 PM #33
Well that will give you a fair idea of what you're up against. I can promise you that it's lonely being alone in these political matters. Hell, you know that from your career. Save your energy for us Bob!
Yairs, I have wondered about this. When you first said you were involved in the local Shed (maybe a year ago), I wondered "what for?" The man has his own excellent recently extended and refurbished shed, that has what appears to be a very high level of functionality for a workshop of its type and size.
So I figured you were basically giving your experience and knowledge to them, rather than seeking out a place to go and do stuff.
Another reason (in fact the main reason) that I did not renew my membership was that there was almost nil that I could do in the local shed that I couldn't do with better equipment in my own (small as it is). If you like working with
- blunt,
- very old and well used,
- low end in the first place,
- usually donated rather than sent to the tip,
- or otherwise vastly inferior tools that are a part of a system that you haven't organised yourself,
then membership may have some benefits. Maybe the local shed here is different, but the tools available are shockers in the main.
O'course many go for the social aspect.
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12th December 2015, 08:18 PM #34.
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13th December 2015, 01:32 AM #35SENIOR MEMBER
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I have spent most of my working life in big industry. Big industry has big policies and procedures. It is just a way of life. When not at work, out shopping etc, I find myself looking away from most commercial and residential construction sites. A totally different standard all together.
It really comes down to what you can live with. If the need for safety and the need for the social engagement have the same priority you are going to make yourself sick and maybe cause some injury to yourself.
You have choices, but now that you have drawn a line in the sand, the choice is obvious.
I am a team of one in my workshop, it isn't always great working alone, but the politics are a breeze [emoji3]
It is great to help others, but always be kind to yourself.
Enjoy your woodworking.
Don
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13th December 2015, 07:31 AM #36Senior Member
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- Sep 2013
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- Sunny side of Derwent River
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- 148
Bob,
As Molly Meldrum would have said, "do yourself a favour" and walk away from 'the shed'. You will sleep better and no doubt enjoy your woodwork more.
All the best
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13th December 2015, 11:13 PM #37
The unfortunate result in all of this is that clubs that will not toe the line with basic safety rules and safe operating procedures are doomed to stay in the same rut as they constantly loose members with the skills & knowledge to help the club or volunteer association. The clubs that do draw the line on unsafe behavior, and promote training seem to prosper.
Members who are prepared to step up and be workshop supervisors etc often feel that they are placed in a no win situation by the risky behavior of other members and the lack of support from the committee. Even if they step aside the risk is still there, but now they have indicated they too are prepared to accept the risky behavior of others by not doing anything about it. Should the worst happen they know that they will probably be held to account for what they did not do ( stop the risky behavior), and that the errant member most likely will not be held to account for their unsafe behavior.Mobyturns
In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever
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13th December 2015, 11:35 PM #38
What national body? Mens Shed's do have a peak body to represent them but to my knowledge there is no national representation or co-ordination for wood working or wood turning clubs. Closest thing is probably the Council of Woodworking Clubs which runs a group Public Liability insurance policy on behalf of member clubs.
What I find curious about AMSA is the statement "The organisation now has over 930 Men’s Sheds representing an estimated 150,000 individuals and employs 5 full time employees." Now this begs the question, because AMSA employs staff is it and each individual Mens Shed a "volunteer association" or an "undertaking" a PCBU?
The manual is very helpful - "AMSA highly recommends that Men‟s Sheds who are seeking specific information and advice on Men‟s Shed health and safety matters do so by contacting their particular State Regulatory/Statutory bodies."
Some of the answers are here, http://www.nswmensshed.org/SiteFiles..._Sheds_(2).pdf & Resource kit - Safe Work Australia Volunteer ‘officers’ and their duties under the model Work Health and Safety Act - Legislative Fact Sheet Series - Safe Work Australia
"Can volunteer officers be prosecutedunder the WHS Act? Volunteer officers have a duty to exercise due diligence under the WHS Act. A volunteer officer is expected to comply with that duty. A volunteer officer cannot however, be prosecuted for failing to comply with that duty (see section 34(1) WHS Act). This immunity from prosecution is designed to ensure voluntary participation at an officer level is not discouraged. A volunteer officer can however, be prosecuted in their capacity as a ‘worker’ if they fail to meet their duties as a ‘worker’."Mobyturns
In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever
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14th December 2015, 07:11 AM #39Skwair2rownd
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I decided not to join the Mens Shed here because of safety issues.
I spent many hours as a teacher in a Special School, along with our OH&S officer, drawing up risk assessments.
Believe me when I say that the NEED to do this brought everything into really sharp focus and made us think of
issues that we had previously not even considered.
Even at the local woodwork club safety is not approached as it should be. It is a vast improvement on the Mens
Shed but there is still an attitude that "she'll be right". Its OK for an ex tradie to not use a push stick ""because he
knows what he's doing!"
Think I will start making some noises.
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14th December 2015, 09:16 AM #40
Scary stuff, BobL - just about every one of those incidents would've given me a severe case of the dire rear.
Literally.
Personally, this is what I'd've done there:
Look around to make sure nobody is engaged in anything that would
endanger them if the machine suddenly stops.
Walk to the switchboard and hit the main switch.
Watch their faces derail when the machines stop.
Gather everybody around the culprit and start a brain storming session about
a) what they did wrong
b) what could've happened to them AND others hit by missiles as a result of
what/how they did things.
Group dynamics are a powerful motivating force. As an educational psychologist I
was involved in group dynamics, team building and teacher training for years
before I came to NZ back in the 80s.
Appealing to reason or rules is just so often futile. Too many idiots carry around convictions of their own invulnerability,
"what was good enough for my grandpa is good enough for me", "rules are for other people because they are stupid
but don't apply to me, because I know better/ because I've done it like this for years".
That's the funny thing Evanism: they do not rely on the nanny state to bail them out while they act stupid: they rail
against the nanny state enforcing stupid rules and taking away their freedom if you try to make them behave safely
-- how many people do you see who will not put on their seatbelt in the car? They all have reasons like that.
Of course they come squealing about needing help once the excrement has hit the air reticulation device -- but before, they
will resent it if anyone tries to make them behave in a reasoned fashion. And they are just too dumb to actually use what
little brains they were handed. They build their house on a floodplain, they build their house on a steep slope of sandy
soil over clay .... and froth at the mouth and get red in the face when you tell them that that's a bad idea. Then try to sue
the council for letting them, when it all turns to custard.
Peer pressure is one thing that can work there in your communal workshop.
If nothing else, the other guys not wanting to get their power turned off yet again will maybe get someone walking over
and having a word.
Use the damned main switch. Be prepared to be called a Nazi.
Also, what someone else said (sorry about the missing attribution): families. Idiots often have idiot families. So when said
idiot cuts off their arm, or their head, you can assume a high degree of likelyhood that the idiot's family will come screaming
looking for other people to blame. Because 'our Wally' would never do something stupid. You won't be a happy person for
years if you were nominally in charge. (insert story about how former best friend's methhead son's pitbull was shot because
it was always roaming and yours truly got blamed)
You've just pretty much effectively dissuaded me from wanting to join (for social reasons) the men's shed in the town we're
moving to as soon as the farm is sold . {shudders} You'd really expect people to have more sense! I often think about 85%
of the population stood behind the door when good sense was handed out.
(( standard disclaimer: all i.m.h.o and y.m.m.v., naturally))
And, oh, BobL, you've just shown me why a RAS can be such a dangerous machine..... {le sigh}
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13th January 2016, 03:23 PM #41
Quite correct, Mobyturns, but that is less than half the story.
A volunteer can still be sued for negilence under common law. Which is worse, a $100 fine from WorkCover, a $1,000,000 damages claim, or successfully defending an action and being left with a $100,000+ legal bill.
Life ain't easy or fair!
Graeme
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13th January 2016, 03:44 PM #42
Do Not Forget the Common Law
In the posts so far quite a lot has been said about workplace safety law, and very little about common law. This is the so-called judge made law that is vastly more extensive than statute laws. Perhaps a simple annacdote will illustrate the point.
In a different town in a different life I worked as an accountant and we had a client who ran a fairly large panel beating business - lots of sanding of lots of very obnoxious substances. At massive expense the client replaced most of the very good sanding tools with Festool/Protool tools - both electric and air - on account of their much better dust capture. He basically said that the costs of being sued were so high that he could not afford not to improve the dust collection.
He quoted many many actual cases that had got to court and made the following points:
- The employer almost always lost; the courts almost always protect the victim.
- The victim doing something stupid is not a defence. "You employed a stupid person."
- With each case decided, the judges are progressively raising the standards.
- We have to plan for what the law is likely to be in five years time, not what it is now.
Graeme
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13th January 2016, 04:12 PM #43
Good Morning Bob
I waited until I could run this thread past a solicitor mate before I responded.
His first reaction was "This is fascinating." - he is a lawyer! He then complimented RoyG (post 20), MobyTurns (post 24) and Ian (post 29) for the acuity of their posts. He reinforced how ambiguous the legal situation could be.
Part of our discussion went like this:
ME: If there is a serious injury who is liable?
LAWYER Whoever is successfully sued.
ME Who would you sue?
LAWYER The one with the most money.
Incorporporated associations.
He said that, becuase of the powerful machinery involved and the risks of accidents then mens sheds were especially risky and should be formally incorporated to protect the officers and the members. The Incorporated Associations legislation essentially gives clubs limited liability, similar to that of a company.
Unincorporated Associations
Most small clubs ar not formally incorporated and do not have any separate legal existance apart from the members. The members are then effectively partners in the club. So who can get sued when something nasty happens?
- Whoever was there, plus
- the committee members, plus
- all other members.
Remember, the members each own a share in the hammer that a recalcitrant member wielded to whack another member over the head. And their personal liability is in no way limited.
He repeatedly repeated that the law is extremely ill-defined and imprecise in this area.
I suspect that I have further muddied the waters.
Fair Winds
Graeme
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14th January 2016, 09:49 AM #44
Graeme,
I can't thank you enough for this post.
Like you I have sought advice from friends, acquaintances and academics in the legal profession, who mind you are also sticking their neck out to provide the advice pro bono.
I have attended a few workshops run by various organizations including the local council on managing risk for volunteer associations, mostly sporting bodies. Sports law has a body of case law already established to set precedent, but the situation is not so clear for associations (incorporated or unincorporated) that permit members to use "inherently dangerous" machinery.
In a legal sense - the warning that the machinery is "inherently dangerous" and the known fact that many users of that machinery are inexperienced or do not fully understand the hazards & risk associated with the tasks, implies a much higher standard of responsibility or "duty of care" from the supervisors and committee to provide a safe 'workplace' and to train and control the behavior of users of the facility. Not having a nominated workshop supervisor only complicates matters. The outcomes of many civil cases defy "common sense" but that is our judicial system.
ME Who would you sue? LAWYER The one with the most money. Is very true as many public liability, & professional liability (PL) claims will show. Sue the one with the most PL cover. As a long standing committee member of a professional association I have facilitated CPD events about managing professional risk, professional & public liability, reducing risk to workers etc and how to manage insurance premiums - don't have a claim!
The personal stress in defending even a successful defence of a claim takes its toll on very strong people. I have seen several instances and heard of many others of professional people who have almost lost business & personal assets because they were too nice to pull people / staff into line! Only the skills and tenacity of an aggressive and specialized legal defence team has protected their assets.Mobyturns
In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever
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14th January 2016, 10:44 AM #45Retired
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Based on this information, you would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE to volunteer in ANY capacity in an organisation.
Somebody could choke on a biscuit and you'd be sued. Even more reason to withdraw further, if not completely, from all forms of dealing with the public.
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