Thread: Safety frustration at the mens shed

Originally Posted by Chesand

Originally Posted by crowie
The world seems to be going mad when it gets to that level of certification and paperwork to do a job....

The traffic controllers at road works need 3 certificates to hold a 'stop' sign. I was passing a couple of them yesterday and asked if they had the 3 certificates - one said that she had, the other did not but he was only filling in while the triple certificate got a cup of coffee.

don't laugh.
The people with the STOP / SLOW sign are typically "specialist" contractors and are responsible for placing and maintaining all the warning and direction signs at a roadworks site. Plus they can be held accountable if a passing motorist injures themselves or one of the workers. Talk about shift responsibility -- 30 years ago the responsibility lay with the senior person in charge of the whole works site.

Originally Posted by ian

If the committee is not fully committed -- and remember the committee is elected by and represents the views of the general membership -- not much will happen till after excreta is spread all over the shop

Could be part of the problem. The shed was set up a couple of years before I joined in 2014. I was invited to go on the committee a few months later after a committee member left. I asked about elections several times and was told that "we only want people on the committee that we can trust". This year will be the first year there have been elections for all committee positions at a general meeting of shed members next month. I have yet to decide if I will attend, most likely I won't.

Bob, how about annual reports to your respective Dept of Fair Trading?

The woodworking club, that I am a member of, has elections as mandated in the club constitution, which is based on the "suggested" Fair Trading constitution and as an incorporated body, the committee are accountable to the members and to the laws of NSW, WH&S act 2011, Associations Incorporation Act 2009 and relevant regulations. There will be similar acts in WA.

Originally Posted by Pat

Bob, how about annual reports to your respective Dept of Fair Trading? The woodworking club, that I am a member of, has elections as mandated in the club constitution, which is based on the "suggested" Fair Trading constitution and as an incorporated body, the committee are accountable to the members and to the laws of NSW, WH&S act 2011, Associations Incorporation Act 2009 and relevant regulations. There will be similar acts in WA.

Our mens shed is not an independent club as set out by any Associations Incorporation Act. Our shed has always been an "activity" of the local senior citizens centre and they are the "CLUB" that has to have elections etc. The SCC delegates the running of the Mens shed to a committee.

My understanding is that the Mens shed wants to become an independent club and maybe that's what has driven them to have the upcoming full election.

Frankly I doubt an election will make that much difference.

Back in 2016 a few members expressed some safety concerns and i got approval from the committee to run a general member survey. Most of the members thought everything was OK safety wise which only fuelled the committee's existing attitude. Like most democracies most of the voters wouldn't know what was needed in terms of safety for such and operation so they listen to their existing experts.

At a shed meeting I expressed concerns for the liability of supervisors which annoyed the committee because what I said put a damper on getting more experienced members to be supervisors which in turn restricted operating hours.

Since I stepped down from being a supervisor and the committee, new supervisors have been obtained and a couple of those seem to be more safety conscious which is a good thing although I have yet to see many improvements. The most positive thing that has happened is that the excess gear is slowly being disposed of (I am the member that puts things on gum tree) which is decluttering the shed which was a serious safety concern.

Ordinarily I would just "move on" and not participate in this thread but I think it has been really useful for raising safety in mens sheds in general.

Originally Posted by ian

don't laugh.
The people with the STOP / SLOW sign are typically "specialist" contractors and are responsible for placing and maintaining all the warning and direction signs at a roadworks site. Plus they can be held accountable if a passing motorist injures themselves or one of the workers. Talk about shift responsibility -- 30 years ago the responsibility lay with the senior person in charge of the whole works site.

A significant number of current Acts & Regs covering aspects of Health & Safety now place a significant duty upon the company CEO's, Mine Superintendent, Mine Manager etc to ensure that the companies Health & Safety policies are compliant with the Acts & Regs and that employees are actually implementing them. Now the whole management chain are "responsible" and many do not seem to comprehend that. With the re-emergence of "black lung disease" in the Coal mining industry there would be some concerned senior managers right now.

The significant issue in Mens Shed type environments is the legal definition of "work" "worker" "workplace" "undertaking" etc and compliance with the H&S Act & Regs. Members aren't "workers" but volunteers performing duties as a representative of the "undertaking" certainly are regarded as "workers" and as such have duties and obligations as specified under the Act & Regs. and must comply and discharge those duties in a competent and responsible manner.

Yes, MS environments are a low priority low risk for Workplace H&S inspectors who have more than enough on their plate with traditional "workplaces" non-compliance. However don't be complacent as Workplace H&S inspectors do have the power and authority to enter an "undertaking's" premises to conduct inspections, investigations etc and certainly can prosecute breaches of the regulations, and must do so in the event of a death, serious injury etc. The Townsville Gymnastics investigation and prosecution of the committee proves that.

The transport industry has had a Chain of Responsibility (COR) format for many years but I can't recall any manager or significant person of responsibility being prosecuted for an "incident" but I am happy to be corrected on that.

“He was already learning that if you ignore the rules people will, half the time, quietly rewrite them so that they don't apply to you.”

― Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites

Originally Posted by BobL

Our mens shed is not an independent club as set out by any Associations Incorporation Act. Our shed has always been an "activity" of the local senior citizens centre and they are the "CLUB" that has to have elections etc. The SCC delegates the running of the Mens shed to a committee.

now that is significant.

It would be very surprising if the senior citizens centre doesn't have at least one employee (manager, person to answer the phone) or contractor (e.g. the cleaner) which means it will be captured by the health & safety (i.e. workcover). Meaning the shed is a workcover workplace.
Time to have some fun me thinks

Originally Posted by ian

now that is significant.

It would be very surprising if the senior citizens centre doesn't have at least one employee (manager, person to answer the phone) or contractor (e.g. the cleaner) which means it will be captured by the health & safety (i.e. workcover). Meaning the shed is a workcover workplace.
Time to have some fun me thinks

Nope they have no employees as such.They have several admin staff who are employees of the city council and their work is donated to the SSC. Their work place's pace is regulated by the council OHS but the mens shed is in a separate building abut 50 m away and the admn staff have nothing to do with the mens shed activities. The city council OHS people have repeated told us they are only concerned with the area outside the mens shed between the shed and the SSC but do not want to know what goes on inside the shed.

Originally Posted by BobL

Nope they have no employees as such.They have several admin staff who are employees of the city council and their work is donated to the SSC. Their work place's pace is regulated by the council OHS but the mens shed is in a separate building abut 50 m away and the admn staff have nothing to do with the mens shed activities. The city council OHS people have repeated told us they are only concerned with the area outside the mens shed between the shed and the SSC but do not want to know what goes on inside the shed.

willful ignorance.

Depends on how much of a pain in the rectum you want to be...

Council may not bill the senior citizens centre for the work performed, but you can be assured that the council staff who work at the centre have that work included in their duty statements -- which makes the SSC a "Workplace".
If Council wants to maintain that it's all volunteer activity, and only if you want to be naughty, start writing to the Mayor, local paper, etc. complaining about the misuse of rate payers' funds in regard to the council employees working at the SSC while on Council time.
It will take less than 5 minutes to get a reply along the lines of "the SSC is a community project of the Council"

Which of course makes the "shed" part of council's project and also a workplace.


Just out of curiosity who among the Council admin and engineering staff sits in the "go to gaol chair" ? i.e. who is liable to personal prosecution in the event of a workplace death? (BTW, in a past life I sat in that chair.)

again, but only if you feel so inclined, you could "have a go" at their personal accountability.

Originally Posted by ian

again, but only if you feel so inclined, you could "have a go" at their personal accountability.

The last thing I'd want to waste my retirement time on is to get entangled on this with our local council. I dealt with enough of that sort of stuff at work to last me a lifetime. It was easier on my mental health to leave my Mens shed supervisory/committee positions and maintain a minimal involvement. Like I have said before, I'm now getting greater satisfaction from my occasional interaction with mens sheds through my general dust monitoring and advice activities.

as I said -- perhaps I should have emphasized the comment -- only if you feel so inclined.

it would be something you might do for personal amusement -- it's not something I would recommend to occupy your time.

as you say -- some of us have dealt with more than enough of that ritualised bull over our working lives and now wish to enjoy our retirement time.


edit
looking at the time of your post, I really should inquire why you are up and at your computer
I trust you are OK.

I have always maintained that the best policy is to regard the communal workshops and an incorporated associations physical assets as a "workplace" and comply "so far as is reasonably practicable."

Which only highlights what is happening in most community organizations, incorporated associations, Mens Sheds, that support a vast array of beneficial activities and events such a local social events, horse races, rodeos ...... with most committees folding when difficulties arose in obtaining the now mandatory public liability insurances required by the Incorporated Associations legislation.

Maintaining the status quo is fine IF all members toe the line, but when it really goes pear shaped the legislation mandates that investigations must occur to determine if potential / actual breaches or failings in discharge of duties etc did occur with prosecutions or orders to comply generally to follow. If you are regarded as a "duty holder" within the "undertaking" i.e. providing a facility for recreational pursuits, then you would want to be very sure that you discharged your duties in a competent and responsible manner.

I'm sure none of us wish to wilfully jeopardize the good work these community organizations / incorporated associations provide, however volunteers require some protection which the Civil Liabilities Act in QLD was meant to provide.

https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/laws...ty-laws/duties

So far the case law supports the notion that incorporated associations who own, lease or are responsible for (in control of) building, plant & machinery, electrical installations ARE captured by the Workplace and electrical safety legislation and as such the "officers" of management committees, volunteer "workers" and others ( includes members and visitors) do have "duties" as specified under the Act & Regs as an "undertaking." Any such body who pays a "volunteer" for some services has really opened a can of worms.

Members and visitors are captured under the "other persons at a workplace" provisions

Other persons at the workplace

A person at a workplace or at a place where electrical equipment is located, whether or not the person has another duty under this part must:

• take reasonable care for his or her own health and safety and electrical safety
• take reasonable care the his or her acts or omissions do not adversely affect the health and safety or electrical safety of other persons
• comply, so far as the person is reasonably able, with any reasonable instruction that is given by the PCBU or given by the person in control of the electrical equipment.

&

The Work Health and Safety (WHS) laws require a person conducting a business or undertaking (PCBU) to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety of their workers while at work in the business or undertaking."


The key is the "persons conducting an undertaking" and their responsibilities as owners or being in control of plant and electrical installations and the word "must." ​ - compliance is mandatory, not optional

And this section really clarifies the situation

Officers

Officers have a duty to exercise due diligence to ensure their organisation complies with the WHS and electrical safety laws. An officer can be found guilty of an offence regardless of whether the organisation has been found guilty.In particular, the WHS and electrical safety laws impose a specific duty on officers of corporations and unincorporated bodies such as clubs and associations to exercise due diligence to ensure that the corporation, club or association meets its work health and safety and electrical safety obligations. This requires officers to be proactive in ensuring that the corporation, club or association complies with its duties.A volunteer officer cannot be prosecuted for failing to comply with their officer duties under the Work Health and Safety Act 2011 (the WHS Act). A volunteer officer can however be prosecuted in their capacity as a worker if they fail to meet their duties as a worker under the WHS Act.

Originally Posted by ian

looking at the time of your post, I really should inquire why you are up and at your computer
I trust you are OK.

Not really.

Even though I am on a low carb (no sugar) diet and diabetes meds my blood sugar levels have been up. This could be an effect of the sarcoidosis but to keep a lid on things I've been on on new drugl drug for the last 2 months that moves sugar from blood into urine. It increases thirst so there's a need to drink more and that in turn make me pee about once an hour. Sleep is ruined and after getting up for about the 5th time I stay up and have a cup of tea. I go to bed at about 8 or 9pm but end up getting up around 2am for an hour or so. then I try to go back to sleep but I just doze and here I am up again at 5am. I have an arvo sleep, used to be for 20 minutes but these days it's for an hour. The good news is I have lost 5kgs in that time so that is something.

On top of that I have water on the knee which is quite painful and does not help for me to get to sleep and stops me from my usual exercise of walking the dogs. Yesterday helped SWMBO get her horse to the farrier and that didn't help the knee.