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  1. #46
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    Default Safety frustration at the mens shed

    This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!
    Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works, if not take the next step, but don't run off to a lawyer seeking a solution.
    I do not belong to a men's shed or any other organization, I find there are too many bush lawyers trying to cruel it for the majority who are often seeking nothing more than social interaction with others who are like minded.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexm1 View Post
    This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!
    Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works . . . .
    Thanks for this comment.

    I did not post my concerns seeking legally related opinions but ways of convincing Shedders to act more responsibly.

    In terms of legal opinions we have been provided with WAAAAAY more than the opinions provided in this thread. We have had opinion by; members of the Shed (some of which are very experienced legal people - we have one member who was a senior Magistrate, he does nothing at the shed other than chase up case law and provides legal opinions on anything we or others ask him about), AMSA, WAMSA, the Insurers, the Council that owns the building, the Senior Citizens people who we are incorporated under, neighbours, various mates, family, and a couple of blokes down at the park where we walk our dogs.

    I submitted my concerns to the Shed committee in writing, and at the final gathering of the shed for the Xmas party just before Xmas, several of the committee came up to me and agreed with my concerns and said they would take this up at the first committee meeting of 2016. The shed is closed until after Australia Day and the first committee meeting for the year will be held then. Lets see what happens.

  4. #48
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    Hi,
    Do not under estimate the 'secret society of dog walkers', we are omnipotent.

    Regards
    Hugh

    Enough is enough, more than enough is too much.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexm1 View Post
    This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!
    Alex, I'm not sure that our society is becoming more litigious.

    On the whole though, I think we are becoming less and less prepared to be responsible for our own actions -- which leads to a culture of "I was done wrong". Which in turn leads to "victims" and their families seeking "revenge" against the person who "did them wrong".
    Read the daily papers, rarely is a gaol sentence long enough.

    The same attitude extends to civil matters. A catastrophic event in a Men's shed will be treated no different.
    After the health system has, hopefully, patched up the injured person, the risk remains that the injured party (or a member of their family) will seek to avenge the injury by going whoever they wish to hold responsible for grandad's early demise or loss of a limb which means he can't cuddle the infant great-grand urchin. Given that for a retiree in their 70s or 80s the economic loss will be minimal -- though if the injury prevents grandma and granddad providing child care 5 days per week, then the "loss" might run to $150 per day per grand urchin -- the motivator will be revenge not a money reward.


    Yes, I'm a little scarred as I've seen the legal system go the bridge designer because the construction contractor only put a barrier around an access point and didn't add a cover to the hole, through which a labourer fell to their death. The argument went that if the designer had been doing their job, they would have either
    1. produced a design that didn't require an access point in the deck, or
    2. would have specified to the nth degree how the access point should be constructed and protected.


    Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works, if not take the next step, but don't run off to a lawyer seeking a solution.
    I agree that instruction and closer supervision is the best approach, but Bob's dilemma is that he is only in the shed on Fridays, and a Shed can't operate on a different set of rules for each day of the week (or month) based on who is the supervisor that day.


    I do not belong to a men's shed or any other organization, I find there are too many bush lawyers trying to cruel it for the majority who are often seeking nothing more than social interaction with others who are like minded.
    safe social interaction in a shed environment really comes down to identifying and recognizing risks. At my local (when in Sydney) shed, the "safety incompetent" -- for want of a better term -- are either supervised very closely or shepherded away from the tools that would do them harm.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    I agree that instruction and closer supervision is the best approach, but Bob's dilemma is that he is only in the shed on Fridays, and a Shed can't operate on a different set of rules for each day of the week (or month) based on who is the supervisor that day. .
    That's why I suggested we have SOP's - then its written down and we have something concrete to refer to.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    That's why I suggested we have SOP's - then its written down and we have something concrete to refer to.
    Alexm1,
    I agree Men's Sheds do have a very positive influence in general on men's health & well being. That is why they exist and is why the receive the funding support that they get. However the agenda of a Men's Shed is not necessarily geared towards the health and safety issues associated with using machinery and power tools. The shed environment and management structure unintentionally places some members in an environment where they assume quite a bit of responsibility with little support. This is not so good for the individuals health & well being.

    What we are talking about is when the system does not support the individual volunteer who is prepared to step up and be counted. The risk is not unknown - there are instances of committee's having been successfully prosecuted for breaches of WH&S regulations etc. So for a retiree with hard earned retirement assets they have a well founded concern that they could be a target when others who do not assume responsibility for their own actions get injured.

    Bob,
    I have been down that road. I approached DECS in South Australia and received permission to model the local wood turning clubs Safe Operating Procedures on theirs. Most states' education departments followed DECS' lead. DECS have some very good material - http://www.decd.sa.gov.au/docs/docum...eSafeUse-3.pdf

    Contact DECS, but I would assume that the Men's Shed movement already have their own model SOP's or at least they should!
    Mobyturns

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  8. #52
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    As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death.
    They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.

    Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.

    Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handyjack View Post
    As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death. They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.
    Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.
    Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.
    We already do that but according to our legal experts it won't stop people trying to sue and it will have limited standing if negligence is proven, AND it seems to have had limited impact on practices by some members.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handyjack View Post
    As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death.
    They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.

    Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.

    Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.
    This approach has been attempted but it quickly fails due to changes in committee's etc. It also has some risk however I used it at TAWA while I was Secretary. The catch is the member must understand what they are signing and must have an opportunity to consider their decision. We formulated it along the lines of the member had to go away and read the policies etc then make an application to use the workshop equipment and this was part of the application. Most new members had done the workshop induction in the beginners wood turning course.

    I understand and acknowledge that;

    · I have received an induction to (insert club name) workshop and policies.
    · I have specific legal obligations under the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 and Regulations.
    · all woodturning and woodworking is inherently dangerous unless suitable precautions are taken.
    · I have been given a copy of
    (insert club name) Introductory Booklet & Guide to Policies & Safe Operating Procedure’s and have read its contents.
    ·
    (insert club name) does not warrant that the above guide and its policies are complete or without error or omissions.

    Certainly not fool proof but this with the booklet and other policies plus the real actions of the committee to improve safety does demonstrate that the committee has a commitment to providing a safe environment and is serious about safety. If the member does not sign or won't comply with their obligations then the workshop authority could be terminated however the member could still enjoy the social aspects of the club and enter the meeting rooms, just not the workshop.
    Mobyturns

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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    Contact DECS, but I would assume that the Men's Shed movement already have their own model SOP's or at least they should!
    Yes they provide a VERY comprehensive safety manual with SOPs for just about every machine.

  12. #56
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    Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
    Mensheds Australia
    PO Box 723
    Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    What national body? Mens Shed's do have a peak body to represent them but to my knowledge there is no national representation or co-ordination for wood working or wood turning clubs. Closest thing is probably the Council of Woodworking Clubs which runs a group Public Liability insurance policy on behalf of member clubs.


    What I find curious about AMSA is the statement "The organisation now has over 930 Men’s Sheds representing an estimated 150,000 individuals and employs 5 full time employees." Now this begs the question, because AMSA employs staff is it and each individual Mens Shed a "volunteer association" or an "undertaking" a PCBU?

    The manual is very helpful - "AMSA highly recommends that Men‟s Sheds who are seeking specific information and advice on Men‟s Shed health and safety matters do so by contacting their particular State Regulatory/Statutory bodies."

    Some of the answers are here, http://www.nswmensshed.org/SiteFiles..._Sheds_(2).pdf & Resource kit - Safe Work Australia Volunteer ‘officers’ and their duties under the model Work Health and Safety Act - Legislative Fact Sheet Series - Safe Work Australia

    "Can volunteer officers be prosecutedunder the WHS Act? Volunteer officers have a duty to exercise due diligence under the WHS Act. A volunteer officer is expected to comply with that duty. A volunteer officer cannot however, be prosecuted for failing to comply with that duty (see section 34(1) WHS Act). This immunity from prosecution is designed to ensure voluntary participation at an officer level is not discouraged. A volunteer officer can however, be prosecuted in their capacity as a ‘worker’ if they fail to meet their duties as a ‘worker’."
    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
    Mensheds Australia
    PO Box 723
    Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
    Kryn
    I think my post above gives an indication to the answers.

    I was approached to help set up a Men's Shed locally in 2008/9 and I was given all sorts of assurances by the people behind the attempt to establish it. Unfortunately most of what they said was factually incorrect and grossly misleading. I do not believe it was intentional, simply naïve, however it immediately created an atmosphere of caution and mistrust. The things that concerned me most was that most of these organizations supporting / facilitating Men's Sheds receive grant money to employ staff to facilitate men's and public health programs; depending upon the structure & organization of the program the staff may "work" from the facility & may actually be "staff/employees" of the individual incorporated association; and very few of those staff or the volunteers, and certainly the majority of members have any understanding of the safe use of machinery requirements.

    I am not anti Men's Sheds or against associations in general, I have more than given my fair share to any I have been involved in. They are very worthwhile and perform valuable roles in the community. However the management of facilities which permit members to use equipment, tools etc has to be well organized and must meet the common law "duty of care" obligations towards others.

    If they don’t receive the support then volunteers are placed in a very difficult position. Most really want to contribute but they realize that the support is not there and that they personally may become liable if things go pear shaped. There are some exemptions from prosecution and a measure of protection under the QLD Civil Liabilities Act 2003.

    My decision to withdraw support was not taken lightly – as it meant that I could no longer remain a member as I was fully aware of my and the committee’s obligations. I carefully considered my options, the workshop environment & typical behaviors, and the level of support, and the trust level I had in those on the current committee and likely to be on future committees.

    Like many others in this situation we come from an environment where Health & Safety is a significant part of our day to day working life - instant dismissal for significant breaches sort of stuff. We are not safety nazi’s but we are aware of our duties and obligations towards others, and are mostly seeking workable compliant solutions with the least impact to members.

    So for many of us by doing nothing to improve the standard of Health & Safety we may be held to a higher standard of “duty of care” because of our background, when things go pear shaped.

    This link provides much of the advice & answers BobL and others are seeking

    http://www.tved.net.au/index.cfm?Sim...ueensland.html The sections on "Standard of Care" "Duty of Professionals" & "Volunteers" are of particular interest. Other states may have similar legislation.

    However relying upon the protections of the Civil Liabilities Act is not very reassuring - it is far better to be proactive and to put in place strategies & training that will help prevent injury or harm.
    Mobyturns

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  14. #58
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    I have only speed through all the post here and I get the feeling that the theme is to threaten. You want them to change their behavior.
    How would it be if they themselves look out for each other. How to do this?
    Something like this... a large bell in the middle of the shop for anyone to use if they see someone incorrectly using some equipment. The embarrassment of being court a few times by fellow shedies will work wonders, and maybe if court a number of times by agreement with all present the offender must give a 2 minute safety talk on the equipment in question then and there before being allowed to continue using any equipment.

    Russell
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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
    Mensheds Australia
    PO Box 723
    Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
    Kryn
    We have already contacted them multiple time about safety and insurance etc.
    Mens shed can affiliate with Mensheds Australia and obtain insurance through then but are not governed or under their control.

    In terms of safety They won't give you a definitely answer on liability as there are many variations of organisational setups of mens sheds.
    Some sheds are incorporated under their own entity others are under other entities (community organisations, clubs and churches etc) so they are not all the same
    Mensheds Australia will simply refer you to their Safety manual (which is very good) about best practice and tell you to get your own legal advice.

    Anyway - like I said we have had more than enough need legal advice - I just chasing ideas to convince members including some of the management to work safely.

  16. #60
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    Bob, I greatly admire what you are doing through your volunteering at the shed and what you are trying to achieve in raising the issues you have raised in this thread. I do not agree with all the advice you have received in response to your initial note but it does appear in the majority of cases to be sincere and constructive in intent. (I also realize that not all agree with me!).
    A suggestion for your upcoming meeting: where you observe an unsafe situation you could shut the machine down and lock it in some way to prevent anyone using it. A notice could be posted explaining the action and what led to it. After a suitable period the machine could be brought back on line.
    This approach would only work if all the supervisors on all the days took the same action, if there was not 100% support it would not work.
    There would be much protest and you would be accused of treating people like children; but if that is the way they are acting then that is how they should be treated.
    Those that do follow safe practices will be impacted, but most likely they realize what you are trying to achieve and will support you. Peer pressure is what will ultimately change those that work in an unsafe manner, either they will change or they will leave.
    Good luck!
    Alex.

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