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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexm1 View Post
    This approach would only work if all the supervisors on all the days took the same action, if there was not 100% support it would not work.
    I think that is the main problem we have.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    The things that concerned me most was that most of these organizations supporting / facilitating Men's Sheds receive grant money to employ staff to facilitate men's and public health programs; depending upon the structure & organization of the program the staff may "work" from the facility & may actually be "staff/employees" of the individual incorporated association; and very few of those staff or the volunteers, and certainly the majority of members have any understanding of the safe use of machinery requirements.

    I am not anti Men's Sheds or against associations in general, I have more than given my fair share to any I have been involved in. They are very worthwhile and perform valuable roles in the community. However the management of facilities which permit members to use equipment, tools etc has to be well organized and must meet the common law "duty of care" obligations towards others.

    Like many others in this situation we come from an environment where Health & Safety is a significant part of our day to day working life - instant dismissal for significant breaches sort of stuff. We are not safety nazi’s but we are aware of our duties and obligations towards others, and are mostly seeking workable compliant solutions with the least impact to members.

    So for many of us by doing nothing to improve the standard of Health & Safety we may be held to a higher standard of “duty of care” because of our background, when things go pear shaped.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Anyway - like I said we have had more than enough need legal advice - I just chasing ideas to convince members including some of the management to work safely.
    A bit like Mobyturns, I came from an environment where "duty of care" is an ever present consideration.

    If you can walk past an unsafe act, then you are not exercising your duty of care.

    As a senior work place supervisor, my mantra had to be NEVER WALK PAST AN UNSAFE ACT. Because if you do you are condoning the act and accepting the unsafe practice as "normal". Earlier I referred to being in the "go to jail" position -- this is the reality if some act by an employee or contractor on a worksite goes seriously pear shaped.


    Working safely in the environment of a Men's shed is not primarily a legal obligation -- it's the attitude adopted by everyone in the shed.

    The best I can suggest is to think of the shed as a factory.
    A properly set out factory has work zones and zones that must be kept clear, barriers where required to prevent access to machines -- but it's rare to see SOPs on every machine. More normal are lock-out keys where only authorised (trained) users have access to a machine's key.


    Shedders shouldn't be obliged to wear full PPE while in the shed, so dust emission, noise reduction, suppression of potential flying objects, etc need to be managed (prevented) at the source.
    the controls to achieve this are very similar to the controls in a factory, so a well set out Shed will have similar controls.

    the other point is that supervisors are there to supervise / help others -- an expectation that you can work on a personal project is inconsistent with the responsibility of "supervision"
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  4. #63
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    Hi Bob

    I deliberately waited a few days before posting the fairly simple response suggested by my lawyer friend.

    First, he said that the biggest issue here was that, most likely, all members were liable for the costs of a serious accident, even if they were not involved. That partnership that owns the hammer argument.

    He then advocated an education campaign based on the theme "Do not let anyone jepodise me or you by practicing unsafe work practices. Why should Tom and Dick have to pay for Harry's silly behaviour?

    Finally, he said it would be irresponsible towards all members not to limit their liabilities by not becoming an incorporated association.

    The mens shed movement is a very valuable service and it would be a shame for it to founder or lose those members able to make the greatest contribution.

    Fair Winds

    Graeme

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    Hi Bob

    I deliberately waited a few days before posting the fairly simple response suggested by my lawyer friend.

    First, he said that the biggest issue here was that, most likely, all members were liable for the costs of a serious accident, even if they were not involved. That partnership that owns the hammer argument.

    He then advocated an education campaign based on the theme "Do not let anyone jepodise me or you by practicing unsafe work practices. Why should Tom and Dick have to pay for Harry's silly behaviour?

    Finally, he said it would be irresponsible towards all members not to limit their liabilities by not becoming an incorporated association.

    The mens shed movement is a very valuable service and it would be a shame for it to founder or lose those members able to make the greatest contribution.

    Fair Winds

    Graeme
    Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
    Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
    Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.
    Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance.

    I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most important reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.
    Last edited by Mobyturns; 17th January 2016 at 08:38 AM. Reason: spelling - important
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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance..
    The senior citizens centre and all it's clubs/activities employs nobody - this has been confirmed by the President and secretary of the Senior citizens.
    We have been through this multiple times - everyone is a volunteer.

    I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most import reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.
    I agree, but convincing the members is not so easy.
    I have put all my concerns at committee meeting and in writing several times - they have no excuse for not knowing the situation.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance.

    I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most important reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.

    All good advice, Mobyturns.

    But the real big risks in dollar terms come from common law, the law or torts or negligence, rather than from statute law. If you let an irresponsible person use your hammer, then you might be liable for any damage he does to himself or others. No one said the law has to be fair or reasonable.

    What Bob is trying to do in his mens shed is to create an environment where all reasonable risks are minimised, and where no one gets hurt. Then, if, in spite of their best endeavours, there is an actionable event, then to limit the costs to the other members. As the senior citizens centre is an incorporated association, the amount of damages is limitted to the insurance coverage of both the mens shed and the senior citizens centre plus the proceeds from liquidating that association. To claim against individual members and board members, the victim would have to prove gross negligence, legally a difficult hurdle to cross.

    But the issue of skilled ex-artisans refusing to follow basic safety guidelines is perplexing. I have an eighty year old friend, a long retired ex wood machinist and ex metal machinist, who pointedly refuses to follow protocol and always removes safety guards, riving knives, etc. "Fifty years ago we learnt to use the gear properly and do not need all that gadgetry getting in the way..." To which I usually reply "Yep, and you are now deaf with all eight fingers intact!" He lost two fingers long before I met him and I know that I am not winning this argument. And he still produces beautiful work.

    In a mens shed, because of his obviously very high skill base and affable personality, he could easily become a role model for inexperienced members with potentially dire consequences.


    Bob is in a very difficult situation.

    Cheers

    Graeme

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
    Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.
    Can a 30 year old join the Senior Citizens Centre?

  10. #69
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    Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    All good advice, Mobyturns.

    But the real big risks in dollar terms come from common law, the law or torts or negligence, rather than from statute law. If you let an irresponsible person use your hammer, then you might be liable for any damage he does to himself or others. No one said the law has to be fair or reasonable. ........

    But the issue of skilled ex-artisans refusing to follow basic safety guidelines is perplexing. ....
    Cheers

    Graeme
    Yes the potential for a law suit under tort law is real and so is prosecution in very particular instances under WH&S law. We can talk about the potential legal claims all day, it won't change anything because most people believe 'it won't happen to them." The real issue is the lack of will & intent of the organization / committee / supervisors / members to provide a safe environment and to work in a safe manner.

    Its not perplexing .... it is a conflict of at times mutually opposite ideals .... men's health, inclusion, mental well being vs unsafe behavior placing others at risk.

    Your example above about one member removing guards, refusing to comply with shed rules etc is a prime example of a lack of will & intent and the goody goody approach to not hurt that particular members feelings etc by saying "p*ss off you are not welcome" because you are creating a hazard for other members. He clearly has no regard for others safety so why should he be permitted to use the shed's equipment and continue to place others at risk? I simply do not understand the tolerance for such people and that sort of callous behavior .... because that is what it is - "a persistent pattern of behavior that reflects a disregard for others".

    Any committee that permits such a person to continue removing guards etc on machinery in a communal workshop is grossly negligent in my book. The lawyers would have a field day on that one.

    (Edit) The other thing I would add is that almost all people involved in promotion of wood turning / working and other likely Men's Shed activities would not like to see the use of gory photos to show what happens when things go pear shaped. It is almost like we live in a utopian world where things never go wrong or only happen to some one else and it is always some one else's fault or negligence that is the cause. It is not fun picking up severed body parts!

    I certainly do not wish to see people excluded however I personally do not like being placed "at risk" because of their disregard for my welfare. It is a simple choice for the offending member - comply and be welcome, or move on.

    Until committee's grow kohuna's it will never change!

    Yes BobL is in a difficult situation, does he wish to be included in a group that takes risks, big risks! I've been there and made my choice. I chose my safety and mental well being over a lot of anguish and unpaid volunteer hours that became a chore rather than a pleasure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.
    excellent
    We have a number of teenagers at our men's shed and if we were to follow your method, I would have hated them to be ineligible due to age.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.

    Great, Bob

    But what do you call that class of members - trainee senior citizens, apprentice senior citizens, senior citizens of the future ???


    Graeme

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    Yes the potential for a law suit under tort law is real and so is prosecution in very particular instances under WH&S law. We can talk about the potential legal claims all day, it won't change anything because most people believe 'it won't happen to them." The real issue is the lack of will & intent of the organization / committee / supervisors / members to provide a safe environment and to work in a safe manner.
    No, Mobyturns, I will have to disagree with you on this one.

    The risk of prosecution under WHS law is very low, bordering zero.
    • A mens shed is usually not an employer or a workplace.
    • WorkCover is so grossly understaffed that they cannot afford to go looking for work.

    Your other comments are not relevant in regard to the case that I referenced. My eight fingered friend is not a member of a mens shed. The instances refered to happened in his shed and in my shed until I very firmly told him never to remove my riving knife. He went through a similar process in a couple of other friends sheds - we regularly help eachother and share machinery - and was repeatedly told not to remove the guards.

    Now, he uses machinery with guards in place in other peoples sheds whilst cheerfully grumbling about what a PIA all the guards are. In his own shed, guards of the most basic kind are non-existant.


    Graeme

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    Great, Bob

    But what do you call that class of members - trainee senior citizens, apprentice senior citizens, senior citizens of the future ???

    Graeme
    While all members that join the shed are required to join the senior citizens centre (SSC) - built into the annual subs and application form - 90% of shed members that join the shed have nothing to do with the SSC (which is next door to the shed) or its other activities. These members see themselves as purely members of the shed. The SSC offers something like 23 other activities to members the majority of which appeal more to women than men and is why we got them to support us in getting the shed going. In fact it was one of the (unfortunately now deceased) female members who suggested a Mens Shed be set up. Few of the other SSC activities are likely to appeal to teenagers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    No, Mobyturns, I will have to disagree with you on this one.

    The risk of prosecution under WHS law is very low, bordering zero.
    • A mens shed is usually not an employer or a workplace.
    • WorkCover is so grossly understaffed that they cannot afford to go looking for work.
    That is precisely the advice we have had from a number of expert sources.

    The greatest external pressure we face is that the insurance (obtained thru AMSA) assumes best practice OSH - but it is not defined nor will the insurers state requirements. The Mens Shed Association provides a comprehensive GUIDE to safety. I would be more than happy if we met that guide - in most cases we meet that standard but in some important ones we do not.

    Last year WorkSafe WA provided a brief self-assessment for small businesses and this was also sent to our Shed via the City Council. However, as we were told we were not obliged to undertake the assessment the Shed committee did not want to do the survey, perhaps somewhat to their annoyance I did it anyway. Of the 31 or so items I was confident we were fully covering 23 of these and partially covering 3 more and we were were more or less starting to look at the remaining items. Given the shed had only been fully established for a few months I was happy enough with the progress we had made. However things seemed to stall after that and some of the members practices deteriorated. As I said before, several of the committee, including the chair told me at the Xmas do that we need to urgently revisit the matter of safety. Given this I'm now more confident we can make progress.

    BTW The greatest risks to health we face are not machinery related - last year we had two heart attacks and rapid loss of blood pressure event that required medical attention.
    Some of us wanted to get a defibrillator kit but others were reticent about this - last thing I heard is we are getting one.
    BTW we had 23 members attend a First Aid short course last year and we have 5 members with Full First Aid certs.
    AT the first aid short course I had a fainting spell and had to sit outside for a half an hour before going home - it turned out I had the beginnings of a bad flu.

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