Klausz, Scandinavian, Hyvelbänk or Høvelbenk style bench thread plans and ideas

[Tom trees]

Thanks Ian
I've been spending the morning re-reading all the Frank Klausz/Tage Frid/Scandinavian workbench threads I could find
I managed to find out a few things, like the build thread on the last bench I've pulled off the net with both top and bottom stretchers
That base is made to the Klausz plans, so those are 2 3/4" wide trestles.

I noticed it looks quite stout when its on its own, but I'm thinking that with the bench top resting on it (end caps included)
that it starts to look a bit on the dainty side.
I realise that these trestles are 3 1/2" deep, so should be fairly rigid, and especially with 4 stretchers.
I'm still unsure about what dimentions I'm after so far.

On another note, it seems that I have found evidence of a broken shoulder vice with two tails, on a Scandinavian workbench restoration thread on routerforums...
but its on a seemingly junky piece of fir for the end cap...
The short end cap made from fir was split aswell, so it was junk that was used for the job.
At least now I know where it fails, presumably happened because of the routed out splines joining it to the top, so I can tackle that issue when I get to it.
It may be possible to remove this weakness out of the design.

Shoulder vice with two tails failed.jpg

Here is a pair of tails on this Green and Green inspired Scandinavian workbench, so it can be done.
It looks a whole lot nicer I think, but may decide its not a good option yet.
Green and Green inspired Scandinavian bench with two tails on shoulder vice.jpg

And another shoulder vice with a pair of tails...but interestingly states not to glue it.
Screenshot (4).jpg

It's certainly food for thought before I go routing the end caps.
I think I recall Cosman on one of the two bench videos he has made recently, that he made triple splines on his bench.
He very briefly mentioned it though...I think it may be on the video I embedded.
I will have to watch it again.
I imagine that the triple splines didn't help matters if Rob didn't choose to do a pair of tails.
He has a good eye in my opinion for aesthetics, likes his dovetails ... and I'd say it might have bugged him not to do them
especially if he made houndstooths on the toolwell end.

Not important anyway as I was planning on having a base made before I cut the ends of the bench to length.
I'll just have to imagine what difference the end caps will add to the overall look of the base.
and to add a bit more to that...
harder to get an idea, since the top is so tall and the fact that I can't get a proper perspective in the workshop as its too cramped.

At least I know exactly what height I want the bench to be.
Thanks for your replies
Tomas

[IanW]

Tomas,I may be labouring the point (particularly as I have zero experience of using shoulder vises), but that first pic you showed with a split in the end cap does not look like "joint failure" to my eyes. It looks like the split in the 'junky Fir' is a fault in the wood, probably due to its being cut from too close to the pith, but Fir is a splitty sort of wood at the best of times. The dovetails seem to be actually holding it together.

To re-iterate, unless people have found ways to use their shoulder vises that I haven't thought of, I cannot see how that corner joint should ever fail in normal, reasonable, use, and certainly cannot see how over-tightening, for e.g., would cause a longitudinal split like that. My simplistic analysis of the forces that joint is subjected to suggests there is no need at all for any fancy joinery. The front piece of the vise is pushed squarely against the end-cap as the screw is tightened, and there should be no lateral or shearing forces that might split the end cap longitudinally. A half-lap joint held in place with a couple of 3 inch nails would do the job, but wouldn't do much for your craftspersonly image.

To break that joint, you would need some pretty substantial shearing forces on the corner. One scenario I can dream up would be if the bolt through the front member came loose and you put something very heavy in the vise & applied lots of extra downward force to it (like whaling into it with a bleeding great hammer). That would twist the corner joint & could lead to failure if you tried hard enough. In fact, I think that single bolt is the weak link in the design - it obviously works 99.9% of the time, so I might be guilty of over-thinking it myself, but if I ever felt the need to make a shoulder vise I would be thinking about using a pair of bolts instead of one, & definitely using a very large washer under the nut...

I do think those legs look a bit undernourished, and likely to allow more deflection than I would like on a bench. The two lots of stretchers in that case are probably necessary to stiffen the undercarriage sufficiently to prevent wobble, but if you go with solid hardwood legs about 4 x 4 inches or even a little less, like mine, I feel very confident that you would get away with a single pair of stretchers, as long as each is at least 6 inches deep. I prefer to use bolts to pull them against the legs, simply because it's less work but tusk tenons work equally well. There is more work chopping the through-mortises in legs & stretchers, but they do give you that nice olde-worldy look.

This is a bench I helped a friend build. He wanted the undercarriage kept even simpler than I like to make them (& he did the work of chopping all those mortises). Lukes bench.jpg

The legs are about 4 x 4 inches & each pair has a centre & top rail joined with good-sizes M&Ts. They are connected by the the one pair of stretchers you can see (the tusks are just convenient bits of scrap used to assemble for the pic.). It's had several years of use now, & all reports are favourable, with no unwanted movement so far. Granted, this is one heavy bench, the top alone is a solid two-man effort to lift, and the wood (E. tereticornis again) is probly a bit stiffer than Iroko, but the owner is a big, strong young bloke who likes to get stuck into things with his hand-planes, so I think it's been thoroughly road-tested!

Cheers,

[Milo]

Hi Tomas

and Hi IanW, aaaagh the old Klausz/Sando bench!

Tomas, your in good hands getting advice from Ian, he should write the book on how to make the bench to fit your needs but the Landis book was pretty spot on and I followed it pretty closely.

I went the expensive Lie-Nielson tail vice option and after many years of solid use it hasnt sagged at all. I highly recommend going that way but there are so many good options.

Ill say this....dont have a child half way through and dont use the wood I did (spotted gum spawned by the hulk himself), every time I move home the I need 5 samoan back rowers to pick up the top!

Happy building!

Milo

12279144_924862290928444_7658304252073082597_n.jpg


10633844_723693014378707_925495128250779062_o.jpg

1150422_505337902880887_706967916_n.jpg

[Tom trees]

Hello Milo
Its getting there, albeit slowly but as least its getting warmer now.
I did find the Klausz plans, and am following the dimensions for the most part, just beefing it up some, and adding bells and whistles.
Trying to keep the overall asthenic of the original though.
I'm not used to reading other folks plans and think I might have made my short end cap an inch or two too short!
I won't be checking this until I get to it, and it shall remain tucked in behind the top until later.
Only noticed when I revisited a thread on another continental scandi build, done ala the plans, over on UKworkshop.
There seems to be a lot of folks making the tail vice design like you did with yours, I should have copped that!
This may not be a problem as my top is 4" throughout so a different design to the plans might be needed anyway.


I've got no computer to post photos of my progress, using Linnux system and can't figure out anything
Last hard drive in this laptop went kaput when I placed my camera case with magnetic button ontop of the keyboard.
The other laptop needs a new wifi card.
I am taking plenty of pictures though, but will have to upload them onto a tablet if I can figure it out.
No other computer to do so in quarantine .

Back on topic
More timbers were filled, laminated and dimensioned to thickness, so the trestle components are ready for marking
out the joints.
I have went about this slowly as I have made changes to the long strechers, and wanted to mock up the design.

Took a bit of time to get the base right, and all decisions on the layout have been made.
I think it was worth it though, a.nd hopefully will look the same as the mock up on the bad floor.
Plenty of tea and pondering and pictures was indeed needed

To get the locations of those long strechers
It took a mock up consisting of three front legs, and most importantly the bottom ski and top bearer of the trestle.

I couldn't assemble the trestles first, as I needed to know the location of the shorter strechers.
I still have to figure out the markings for double tenons on the trestles.
The long strechers are getting tusked tenons like Rob Cosman's bench, eight of them though.

Currently working on the four long strechers, have some holes to cut and plug in them.
Then I have to work on some handsaws for the joinery.
Apart from filing a crosscut panel saw
I've not really needed precision sawing until this point.

I'll upload some more on this soon if I can figure it out, might even see if I can edit this post to add some clarity.
I'm sure I have plenty of questions later.
Cheers guys

Tom

P.S I will be making a mobile base for it, but not really thought about it beyond adding another pair of strechers to counter any possible racking.
Probably will be something like a metal Carl Holmgren inspired, as the single foot lever is less of a pain and less racking.
It will involve plenty of metal whatever it turns out like.

[Tom trees]

Hello again
Thought I should do an update on what's most likely the longest woodwork project ever.
I didn't realise it was so long since I last posted.
It took a fight to take pictures off my old laptop, and think I have figured out how to shrink photos on this computer.

Its still at WIP status as it ain't near finished, not even the base.
Made all the usual mistakes even though I was aware of it, will have to see if I can remember them in the photos.
Even done some that didn't involve my terrible math, so I have no excuse for some.

Mainly shooting myself in the foot by the marking out though, and still doing the same mistakes not leaving the line to pare to.
That led to all sorts of ways of finding out what to do when your reference is gone,

Maybe you will spot some other things that were very silly!
Anyways...

Finally made my mind up on the dimensions for the legs and whatnot, will have to take measurements for all this again, as I have forgotten at this stage.
Just incase someone was curious as I was about proportions/aesthetics.

I was very curious about the overhang of the Klausz, as something that annoys me about my bench is the top strecher hitting/triggering off my knee whilst planing wide stock, this was worth some testing as the idea of a possible racking base would be rather disappointing,
Plus I think it might be a good idea for other things.
SAM_3371 (copy).JPG


With that done I selected some stock for the legs and skis, all drilled chopped and filled with plugs, on some I even made a slight attempt to match the grain, not on all of it though,
much too conservative or un-organised for that, I don't know which, maybe I'm just lazy.
SAM_3354.JPG

Very little stock of the right thickness in the workshop and lockdown 1 was here,
I had to get some timbers stored at the folks before the tougher restrictions were taking place.
SAM_3367.JPG

Learned a few lessons on material conversation doing these laminations
Being the stickler I am, with the material I have, I have been doing a half inch laminate in-between to make up the stock for the legs
SAM_3376.JPG
SAM_3388.JPG



Once the legs were done I had a wee mess around with the idea
SAM_3454 (copy).JPG

[Tom trees]

Got to try out a pig sticker for the mortises
SAM_3628.JPG


Figured out a good way of finding high spots in the mortise walls
NOT this way if you can help it
SAM_3635.JPG

But THIS way, really pressing the whatchamacallit aluminium block against the wall instead
SAM_3649.JPG

Figured out this is NOT the way to mark out the tenons
Sorry lost some photos of this, what worked for me in the end, was clamping the leg stock on top of the skis, with the use of an adjustable square
to centre the timber for an accurate reveal...ie the mortised ski was situated where the leg is, and orientated as you would if you were chopping them.
SAM_3626.JPG

After some terrible marking out I moved onto the cutting...

I went a bit close on the lines on some, as I have my saw tuned to veer off the line (away from the fence) if hard pressed...
So anymore I will try and cut to the right of the line only, flipping the work....
If I can't, then I won't cut so closely left of the line.

That clamp is a bit close and nearly stopping me from chopping well away from the knife line
SAM_3724.JPG


Making sure no spelching from that drill happens DAMHIK
SAM_3732.JPG


Made do with the bandsaw up until now, and finally got to use the saws I had sharpened
SAM_3749.JPG


Still went a bit close on some cuts, will pay for this now I'm thinking.
Not so sure on that "knife wall" technique, well maybe not on the actual knife line anyways
SAM_3750.JPG


The start of the faffing around
This marking guage has earned its keep for me!
SAM_3690.JPG


Here's the way I found marking out the tenons what worked for me, (with the timber stacked on top)
And this is where the marking gauge and aluminium plate saved the day.
SAM_3752.JPG


FIrst time I got to properly use my shoulder plane, it's been fettled a bit more now making it easier to make the cutter flush with the walls of the plane.
I might have bumped/cut into the shoulder line getting the cheeks down to the lines!
SAM_3757.JPG


Cleaned the rest up with a Bailey
SAM_3760.JPG


The shoulder plane making difficult work easy, definitely worth having
SAM_3767.JPG


Continued on next page

[DJ’s Timber]

You need to re-upload your images, they didn’t upload. You might still see them as they are stored on your browser but we cannot see them

[Tom trees]

POSTING SMALL AMOUNTS OF PHOTOS ANYMORE, ARRAGH!!!!

So I think I might be getting the jist of things now...for the next round anyways.



Here's some more of me figuring out how to get things down to the lines, or further past them due to my numpty marking out skills
SAM_3696.JPG

SAM_3694.JPG

And another for good measure on the way I'm going about marking out the tenons anymore!
I had to flip the fifth leg around

SAM_3713.JPG


I seem to have lost a folder of the fitting of those shoulders, sorry folks




Started work on the strechers
SAM_3411.JPG



Full steam ahead it seemed, trestles dry assembled, and ready for a proper mock up
SAM_3800.JPG



You might notice four extra lengths of timbers, more work for numpty
Somehow I'd mistaken inside measurements and thought I had loads of extra stock to work with
Silly me
SAM_3803 (copy).JPG


That wasn't the only mis-calculation, those legs were a bit long before that photo!
However I measured that


Nipped a bit off before that, hence why they're so proud in the last pic
SAM_3796.JPG


What the bothersome part was, I used the cleaner stuff for the first round of strechers, so I had many unsightly holes to fill...
I suppose it was nice to get a better idea for the mock up, was miffed for a while though.
SAM_3790.JPG



Next was figuring out the profile for the ends of the trestles, and then onto shaping the ends of the skis.
I used some cardboard and a compass to figure out that profile, pictured later
First time using that belt sander in years, I must say it was quick going, but was difficult to keep the timbers steady on that flimsy plate!
Might make a proper table for it someday, as it's earned it's keep doing those curves.
Ends nipped off on the bandsaw beforehand
SAM_3809.JPG


Just a rough profile for now though.
That aluminium plate once again was nice to have
SAM_3829.JPG



It was starting to get cold and I figured it would be better to get to the glue up instead of cutting those mortises.

In hindsight it was probably a good idea, even though it was tough working on the 3 legged trestle, instead of individual legs.
SAM_3848 (copy).JPG


By the skin of my teeth got them glued up in time
SAM_3858.JPG


Continued on next page

[Tom trees]

Hello again
Here is a shot of the trestles with the profile templates for the skis.
It took a bit of trial and error, rather than calculation,
Thanks to the many photos of benches, I estimated the distance of the flats so I could mess about with the compass.
Used a square piece of copy book card, stood upright, lined up against the legs and folded it over the corner to get dimensions.

Doing a few arks, rubbing out loads of times, and doing again to see if it was right.
Once I got it how I wanted, I made sure the actual hole I wanted was well marked, I marked all around it with pencil afterwards.
Hope you weren't expecting some clever calculations
SAM_3876.JPG


Made sure that I chopped a deep line all round the mortises to stop any breakout, a wee knife line won't cut the mustard here as the drill would tear out past it.
Well the 10mm bit that I'm using anyways, a good deep awl punch is necessary if your using steel bits.
SAM_3878.JPG


Chopping out the waste, a CMT forstner bit set is on my wish list
SAM_3881.JPG


A bit of back and fourth, until I was able to get close to the end grain lines, then I could pair the long grain ends close to the actual marking lines
which you can't see from the pic
SAM_3883.JPG


A bit awkward to say the least pairing those far mortises, but at least the trestles were glued up before the temperature in the shed had dropped.
I got a nice scuff on the work from a tumble, resting that trestle briefly on a rickety old chair wasn't the best idea
SAM_3894.JPG



Here is another shot of the aluminium block for pairing, making sure no shadow gap was present at the line,
and also to mark any lumps in the middle with graphite
SAM_3900.JPG



Got me some new lamps for the job of pairing these long tenons, been looking for an angle poise lamps for ages and ages.
It was near the final straw before this, as I stuck a chisel past my knife line whilst working on the flats of those bottom skis,
TWICE I might add in the same place! arragh!...
A polished chisel back can fool the eye,
Not anymore though, now I can get the light behind the flat while actually not shining it in my face at the same time.

Made up a sliding base for it, absolutely delighted with these things, especially after getting ripped off with micro versions from an unscrupulous ebay seller previously...
What d'ya expect!,
Get one of these old ones if you can, you won't be disappointed.. I guarantee it!
SAM_3906.JPG


Getting the cheeks to fit first, a good shot of the tools used.
That offset marking gauge makes for an alright router plane, if you have a shoulder plane to do the work that is...
The aluminium plate still in use to ensure I don't dive too deep with the shoulder plane

I just wish this marking gauge had double locking screws as it does slip on the polished stem.
Graphite probably dosen't help things either
That micro adjust feature is also pants, and just another thing to keep an eye on, a smooth stem makes micro adjustments easy, no need for it.
SAM_3912.JPG



Getting closer to getting these finished..a few blocks of various sizes are handy to have about the place
SAM_3936.JPG



My strechers moved a bit during this, which was no surprise...
Normally they get a bit more time to settle into the environment, but that mistake earlier made for more unstable material.
Doesn't help matters when you want to keep a maximum thickness, so only properly jointed on one face and edge.
This wee wooden shim was the perfect thing to accompany the calipers
SAM_3938.JPG


Getting close up to where I am now, will try and keep more up to date since I seem somewhat able to reduce the picture sizes...
Tenons fitting snugly and the shoulders on all four strechers are to do now.
Can't wait to get this base assembled, but won't be tidying them up until I can get some more work on the top again though, as wedged mortises probably wont be cut
until I can see how things pan out.

Eager to see some ideas on what to do with the ends of the protruding tenons, I think I will just trim them square and put some bevels on them, but it would be nice to have options.

Thanks
Tom

[IanW]

....... Eager to see some ideas on what to do with the ends of the protruding tenons, I think I will just trim them square and put some bevels on them, but it would be nice to have options.....

I reckon the fewer bits sticking out anywhere on a bench, the better. Wedge them (I'm a belts + braces bloke when it comes to work benches) & trim flush, would be my vote.

Geez Tom, you made hard work of setting out those mortises for your tenons. Cutting large M&Ts in hard wood is not easy, I'll admit, but you could simplify setting out by making yourself a mortise gauge or two (two is better for lazy people like me when fitting unequal widths), it'll simplify your life no end. They don't have to be elaborate to do the job well. Actually, having multiple marking gauges isn't just for lazy workers, reducing the number of times you have to re-set a gauge reduces the chances of error, and that's always a good thing in my shed, too....

Cheers,

[Tom trees]

Aye I could probably do with a mortice gauge or two Ian, but I'd rather just get on with it.
I'd reckon I wouldn't be that much slower without them, and I have another wheel gauge with the bevel flipped the other way to get an accurate mark.

Its the maths that gets me as I have a tendency to go with whatever looks right to me.
More often than not, my eye has hankering to go with the imperial system, and I often end up counting fractions and recounting them checking them multiple times
and then realising I made some error and start it all off again.
I think I have a dyslexia for numbers, but stubborn enough not to use the metric system for fine stuff.

I'll take your advice on board as some food for thought so I will.
Been intrigued by Cosman's mortice gauges, and equally stumped by the fact the cutters are orientated the wrong way round for me, as I spend much of my time filling/plugging timbers.
Might make one someday to my liking, but have a list of priorities to get on with first.

I don't see how protruding tennons would be in any way obtrusive as the bench will overhang them by a long stretch.
That was a no brainer for me on the aesthetic front after seeing Cosman's bench, I just like it.
Could even be prove handy for something!
You don't know how useful something could possibly be, if it doesn't exist
It might play into the retractable caster design which I have not yet planned.
The design must not be in the way, preferably as little visibility as possible,
workable by a single lever, and one must be able to sweep the floor underneath in order to meet my objective.
It will be fun designing that!

Plenty of metalwork to do when its finished, and more steel will likely be implemented in the tool tray.
I will do a few mock ups to see what I like, bearing in mind it's four inches throughout.
You queried me before on this, and apart from mass of the extra two inches, I figure I might wish to work on the other side of the bench if those bench dogs prove
troublesome.
If they didn't look so nice and it wasn't traditional, I wouldn't have put so many of them there, if any at all.
Though If they weren't there, I'd never find out how useful they might be.

I have a feeling that a lot more use could be made from that side of the bench, I may or may not get on with the extra thickness in this regard, we shall see.
I really don't like that flimsy 1" plank at the back on The Klausz, so something will have to be done about that, probably will go a bit thicker than that, possibly to hide any metal that might be hidden,
but aesthetics rule sometimes, and the rule of eye may have to be adhered to, so probably no more than 1/4" extra can be achieved on that front.

I do rather like Cosman's sliding lamp and having a trial with my lamp at the moment in a similar fashion,
it hasn't been in any way awkward for me so far, glad I didn't have a mess making a metal base for it whilst I am deep into a WW project.

Thanks for your insight

Tom

[IanW]

It's your bench, Tom, & one would hope it will be with you a very long time, so by all means make it as aesthetically pleasing as you can. I was only speaking for myself - things find me these days and do me injuries for no good reason at all. Coupled with my old man's skin that has the tensile strength of wet tissue paper, it takes so little to knock a goodly chunk out of myself.

I had always intended to make my bench easily moveable too, but it began life in a very confined basement workshop. There was nowhere to move it to, so I left that part til "later" when I had more space. Now I have much more room, but the only time I need to move the bench is when I want to lay long boards across it, for cutting sliding dovetails on shelves, etc. That happens rarely enough that I just grunt it around a bit, saying to myself "I must make this damn thing easier to move". But once the job is done, I forget about it until next time. The bench is becoming heavier & heavier (I used to live by a busy road, & I reckon it absorbed lead from all that burnt petrol ). A strapping young apprentice would be good, but all my grandchildren live too far away...

Cheers,

[doug3030]

Good to see it taking shape Tom. You certainly are not scared of doing a bit of extra work to get the result you want.

[Tom trees]

Thanks for the encouragement folks.
Nothing much to show but thought I'd post an update anyways.

Just got the base done for the most part, embellishments will be done later on,
like the wee mortises for the wedges cut and wedges made, and tidying up the ends.
I'm still leaving that off until I have the top finished, as the base is slightly longer than on the plans I have,

Dang battery in my camera died just before I could get an more interesting piccy of the assembly whilst it was upright.
I was anticipating disaster, so didn't pop in to swap out it with the missus's camera.
Thankfully went really well, and everything nice and tight.

The job had been a bit of an unexpected nightmare with some unexpected blowouts involved, everything got glued back and that, it was just a frustrating experience waiting for repairs to cure.
I figured a better way of checking those tenons whilst doing this though, so I suppose it was a positive experience in the end.

Will get ye some better photos of the base when I figure out how/where to store some timber that's in the way.


Began on the fitting of the shoulders by finding the lowest line to start with and marking
SAM_3940.JPG



I found the chisel helps with speeding things up when needing to hog a bit of waste off.
After getting close to the shoulder line on one end of the four strechers, I set them aside for now.
SAM_3944.JPG


Got the large trestle on the bench again to check for some bumps or errors which would make fitting shoulders a pain
SAM_3952.JPG


It was at this time I was glad of taking everything close to the line, as pairing those shoulders to fit was now done on top of the trestle,
Didn't feel like taking pics of the blowout from the tenons but you can see the heater in the background.
SAM_3954.JPG


Some were still needing removal of the cheeks, it was a bit of a job disassembling and refitting everything.
I figured out pressing the tenon down on to the bench, and following that with a block of wood to press it further out of the mortise,
was easier than trying to whack the tenon out with a mallet, whilst the strecher balanced on stacked timber.
SAM_3957.JPG


I found out earlier that it was easier to map out the high spots on a page rather than multiple confusing scribbles on the timber.
SAM_3964.JPG


Some more tight spots to sort out, I found out using a square was helpful to figure out material removal from edges
SAM_3967.JPG


Once I fitted the tenons to the large trestle, I could get a better impression of a shoulder line on the other end using this ever handy aluminium plate.
SAM_3970.JPG


Still some more removal needed on those far tenons
I decided to try a different approach of finding high spots on the tenon instead of lugging that trestle off of the bench, I tried using an aluminium beam and made up
a real shim for it, it's far better than that random rough sliver I misplaced.
It is wider, planed on both sides and has a low spot which just fits , and is marked with an arrow.

This is the business, and allows me to check the centre of the mortise aswell as on the edges, much easier, faster and more reliable.
SAM_3972.JPG
SAM_3973.JPG
SAM_3979.JPG



That's all I've got for now, but will be back with an update soon, once I've cleared up a place for it...
The top is currently resting on stacked timbers, which need to find somewhere to go.
Some shop organising is needed.

Tom

[Tom trees]

Well since that was a bit of a lousy last update for such a celebratory phase of this project done,
I should have waited to include some piccy's, but was a bit stuck into it, to get some good shots.
I hope no-ones awaiting to see some better shots, as the place is a mess now, so this is as good as it gets
I need re-organising this place, in hope for it to resemble a workshop.....well someday.


Manoeuvred the base in position for the top to be slid onto
SAM_3982.JPG


Finally don't have to worry about the slab balanced on that stack timbers collapsing
SAM_3983.JPG

Reclaiming some space again, hoping to make enough space behind it, when that pile gets stacked somewhere else
SAM_3985.JPG

Gonna be a tight fit but might see if I can possibly get the two of them lengthways, I'll have to think about it...
I hope I don't get sidetracked again
This may take some time for me to get back into the swing of things.
SAM_3989.JPG