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28th February 2008, 10:16 PM #1
Traditional work bench - let me run some ideas past you...
G'day all,
It seems the more work I do with hand tools in the shed the more irritating my home-made table saw come bench becomes. No dogs, no tail vice and the two very cheap front vices appear to be wearing out rather badly. I also have a very rough bench I use mostly for storing power tools and metal working which could easily be retired. So I'll be building a fairly traditional bench for hand tools work.... but I have some questions:
Timber choice - To my mind some fairly generic hardwoods would be perfectly appropriate. I have access to some ~60 year old Victorian hardwood floor boards (probably Ash or Messmate) from a house being demolished which can be ripped to 100mm x 19mm boards.
I'm thinking I'll laminate the boards together using threaded rod and 1" dowel to keep it all together... lets say 2100mm long, 600mm deep and 100mm think. I'm well aware of how much this timber could move seasonally, and for this reason I will avoid end caps where possible.
Thoughts?
Tool Well - There is divided opinion on these, and I honestly don't know whether I'd use it. It would make the job of building the top harder if I didn't use end caps At this point I'm thinking no tool well.
Hardware - I'll be making a really simple tail vice using a single screw much like Lord Nibbo's here, with a few changes to suit me. The big question for me is; front vice or shoulder vice?
Bear in mind that I've never seen or used a large screw front vice or shoulder vice, at this point I can only compare the positives and negatives. A shoulder vice offers great vertical capacity but poor horizontal capacity, while the opposite is true for a front vice. Just how useful either of these will be to me is unclear. I'm always concerned about racking in a front vice, but if I can't hold a 3' long board for edge jointing a shoulder vice is useless..... I could use some help on this one.
I've considered a leg vice also, but I think I'd have to use one to be convinced it works well enough.
Lastly, will the large construction vice hardware from Carbatec work well enough? Or perhaps I should save my pennies for some serious gear?
Thanks in advance for your help all
Dave.
P.S. Feel free to tell me to bugger off and buy the book or something"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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28th February 2008 10:16 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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29th February 2008, 12:25 AM #2.
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Yep
Agree
I have a removable one - see here.
It's real nice to use when you need it but have only used it about 5 times in 2 years. I know I would use it more if I made more furniture but it seems to have limited use in tool making. I use my leather faced big front vice a lot more than I though I would - for example hold bits of brass or wood so they don't get mangled. I comes down to what you are going to do.
Bob
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29th February 2008, 08:56 PM #3Skwair2rownd
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Workbench
Agree with your thoughts on the hardwood but not the lack of a well.
The well serves the very useful, and probably necessary, purpose of holding and protecting your tools. This is especially so for anything sharp that you don't want to roll onto the floor. it is also handy for storing nails and screws etc., etc.
As for vises you have plenty of info from Bobl and Lord nibbo.
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29th February 2008, 10:16 PM #4
Good one Bob! I'm sure I can think up a method for retrofitting a removable shoulder vice.... yep, that's a winner
Thanks for your thoughts artme, I'm still considering the tool well. I'm used to walking around my current bench, but obviously the new one will be used primarily from one side only. This is a bit of a foreign concept to me, but I imaging some tool storage and a well may be useful once I get my head around it.
I've been having a look around at front vice hardware, but so far I'm not convinced. I might have a go at constructing a large twin screw front vice myself I think.... still got plenty of time to think about this though, it will take me months to get the bench top laminated first
Dave."Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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1st March 2008, 11:30 PM #5
Using threaded rod and 1" dowel to keep the top all together. Check
No tool well mean large working area. Check
Tail vice can be a challenge to make but it can be quite useful. 50/50
Front vice from CarbaTec should be OK. A record vice will be better. 50/50
How thick are the floor boards??Visit my website at www.myFineWoodWork.com
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1st March 2008, 11:37 PM #6
Dave
Best advice I can give you is to do a little research. A recent book on benches by Chisopher Schwarz is the bees knees. This will give you much to consider:
http://www.lostartpress.com/default.aspx
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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2nd March 2008, 09:01 AM #7
The tail vice I have in mind will be extremely simple; no actual rear clamping capacity at all, just the front clamp and dogs. Very similar to Nibbo's and very simple to construct, not challenge there! Keeping it simple stupid!
I've looked at quite a few front vices and I'm leaning more and more towards a twin screw front vice and a removable shoulder vice.
The boards are all 110mm x 19mm tongue and groove which can be ripped down to 100mm wide. I'm heading out this morning to collect about 25 boards at 2.5m long.
Thanks Derek, I've already ordered "The Workbench Book" and I've been looking at Schwarz's book too. Should I order both perhaps? I'm quite comfortable with the design and construction, all I really need is ideas I think, where the Schwarz text is a little more technically focused as far as I can tell."Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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2nd March 2008, 09:06 PM #8
It has begun!
Attachment 68429
Big stack of 30 long boards, plus a few extra short ones
Attachment 68430
Some I collected last week for a repair on my dining room floor, but I only need one of those for said repair
Attachment 68431
Joints, bearers, panels, etc. There are some sizable timbers there for legs and stretches.
Unfortunatley I'll be cleaning all of the boards up with a hand plane
To the shed!"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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3rd March 2008, 10:20 AM #9
I dropped into Carbatec this morning to check out the front vice and tail vice screws; I must say that the front vice operation makes a convincing argumewnt in terms of value for money. I has a good size screw and guides, solid cast supports and comes with two seperate additional guide plates. I was considering using two of the tail vice screws to build a twin screw front vice, but having seen the play in the screw mechanism I think the standard front vice will be better for now.
Anyone have any thoughts?"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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3rd March 2008, 11:25 AM #10Skwair2rownd
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Progress report
I think you are right about the vise. Don't get one made in China or India. I have seen a couple of these crmble when decent pressure was applied.
You've got a lot of work tod o with that handplane! I won't keep you from it!
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3rd March 2008, 11:35 AM #11
Another way to go about the tail vice is just to put a front vice on the end of your bench - I picked up an 6 1/2" Silex vice for $20 which I will retrofit to my bench. I reckon that you will often do better buying an old Dawn no 8 (pictured) or no 9 or Record no52 on ePay (go for a picnic to pick the thing up) for about half the price of a new one.
I made a well and I find it useful. It means that your bench is narrower, but you aren't going to use it for assembly are you, so what do you need the width for? And if you can walk around your bench, put the well in the middle - then you get two working sides of the bench and your tools don't disappear onto the floor.Last edited by jmk89; 3rd March 2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason: add pic
Cheers
Jeremy
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly
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3rd March 2008, 01:24 PM #12
That sort of rules out the value for money argument then; all of the Carbatec units are made in China I believe. This one I looked at this morning seems like a real winner, smooth action, tight tolerances and it certainly looks well put together. I guess only time and experience will tell, does anyone have one of these?
I have another take on this too; 'apply appropriate quality'. The very cheap vices I current employ have lasted by almost two years and sustained considerable abuse. The construction of the Carbatec vice is considerably better, heavier section castings, much better tolerances, reasonable design (or copy at least).... an infinite improvement over what I have now. By this rational I should expect to get considerably more life from the Carbatec vice. Appropriate quality on a budget? Sounds good to me.
I've looked at a couple of quick release vices also, none of them turned me on at all. I have this fear of moving parts, the less there are the better.
Jeremy, the Dawn/Record style vices just don't sit well with me. There's something about the non-customisable nature and inability to repair them that bugs me. The simpler the better.
P.S. Derek, I ordered the book you suggested also. Only an extra $20... pffst! Hang the expense!"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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5th March 2008, 12:34 PM #13
bench well
Another thought for you kman-oz:
I was rereading the blogs over at Woodworking magazine last night and I was particularly taken with an ide Bob lang had about his tool well. He uses removable boxes sitting on a shoulder on the inside surfaces of the top. The great thing about these is that they can be removed to allow clamping and inverted to provide a continuous top when you need it.
I tried to insert a phot, but it didn't work.
I am definitely going to build in a tool well (I'm very good at knocking things off benches onto the floor) but I think the ones that sit along the far side of a bench just reduce the versatility and utility of a bench. I have been planning on a cnetral well as used by David Charlesworth, but now I really like Bob Lang's idea.
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"... it is better to succeed in originality than to fail in imitation" (Herman Melville's letters)
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5th March 2008, 05:01 PM #14Skwair2rownd
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Vise
I had a look at that vise yesterday in CT Bt\ris. Was fairly impressed. Much better quality than the ones referred to in my previous post. Iwould buy that one.
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6th March 2008, 11:07 AM #15
Great find jaspr, that's brilliant! Best of both worlds and even more versatile... that's going onto the design board too
Thanks artme, I think I'm decided on that front vice now, with a removable shoulder vice retro-fit to come later. I just learned my mothers neighbour has one of these (learned over a chat over the fence ) and I'll be going to have a closer look and feel in operation on the weekend.
I had my own good idea too: The front vice screw on the Carbatec vice is offset so that you can get away with using only one side of the vice for vertical work, of course you still get some racking. I've been using a scrap of timber to brace the other side of the vice, and I've seen people make a little collection of spacers in a feeler-gauge style array, neither of which works very well unless you have three hands or exceptional knee dexterity.... I have neither so I always find this painful.
Anyway, my idea was to build a screw thread into the left side of the vice jaw that can be used to hold the left of the vice open at the desired width while clamping the peice on the right with the vice screw. The procedure would go like this; place peice in centre of vice and tighten, extend thread, open vice and clamp peice vertically on the right, tighten. If you had any flexing in the vice jaw this method could be used to correct for this too. Exactly what screw to use I'm not sure about yet.
If anyone doesn't understand what I mean I'll make a scetchup."Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
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