Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Of course, use all the info.
Even after building the tailvise more than once, it still seems confusing when starting a new one. After the joints are cut it's easy to see how it works and say.. . " that wasn't so bad ". To any one attempting one, I would suggest construction pine glued up the exact size as the good bits and test before cutting the good bits. You'll probably end up with a pine tailvise as well, that can be used somewhere.
Well, it would be a bit theoretical, Brett, since I have used mainly my own for so long, but here's a couple of points.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Quick-action screws are great things to have. I think the chance of wear & malfunction down the track is outweighed by their convenience! (I don't have any! :C)
Leg vises have no appeal at all to me. As far as I'm concerned, they are just a current fashion-statement & I cannot see what advantages they have over a metal front vice. I don't like the skinny jaw, and if you choose to use a wooden screw, it is totally unprotected and in grave danger of injury during use, e.g. when struggling to set a long, heavy baulk on edge & dropping it on the screw. (That ought to provoke some discussion....:U).
No-one has mentioned shoulder-vises as far as I can see. These have the great advantage of being able to hold wide pieces vertically because there are no guide-bars in the way. Their big disadvantage is they stick out so far from the bench front, and at a height that is very threatening to certain bits of male anatomy. I wanted to fit one to my current bench, originally, but decided not to because of space limitations. I think I would have ended up a counter-tenor instead of a baritone, had I not decided agin it....:o
Whether you make them from scratch, or buy one of the several styles of kits, I can't recommend a tail vise too highly, for routine cabinet-maaking (& a lot of other tasks as well). They give you so much more than travelling dogs, which imo are poor cousins that take almost as much effforrt to make. As Ball peen sez, & so have I, the traditional all-wood vise looks daunting, but once you get into the build it should become very obvious how it operates. The only 'secret' is to work carefully & accurately - you won't get a smooth-running vise if it's out of square.
While not strictly a vise observaation, it's integral: Don't skimp on dog-holes! The small extra effort of making plenty at adequate spacing when making your bench is rewarded a thousand (million?) times over by reduced winding back & forth, unless you have quick-action machinery.
There's my quick 2c
Cheers,
Thanks Ian. your answers are precisiely why I want that sort of input from the Gidgee's (hard buggers). This thread is not just about singing the praises of the various offerings, but also, and probably more importantly, highlighting deficiencies and other features that may be inappropriate for some people. It is that kind of info that will help people to make the better choice as to what will work best for them. That was Derek's caveat, and it's the most important of all.
30 and more years of experience will tell you what to avoidQuote:
Originally Posted by IanW
Agreed, as long as they work properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
This is probably the most important point that you raised. I too am somewhat struggling to see what "extra" they offer. The screw is lower down than face vises, allowing a deeper job to put in, but it's not that much more, especially given the yuge slab of wood required.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
You can hold a stick vertically, but that's only on either side of the screw, so not a whole lot of vise face holding the job. What's more, how often would you want to do this??
As I see it, the leg vise has to have an accompanying Sliding Deadman to make it it more useful than a regular face vise (based upon the above). However, you can still use a SD in conjunction with the regular vise.
Advantages of the leg vise so far: slightly greater depth of job holding
The Hovarter face vise gives you depth holding that is only limited by the height of the bench (job can sit on the floor if necessary). The limitation with the Hovarter is the width between the screws - but that's still a pretty generous 600mm. So this vise, as I've stated before can hold a job 600mm wide, 900mm + vertically, and 250mm deep. That's a bloody big drawer!
Advantages of the leg vise so far: well I'm back to struggling again :U
Holding long pieces horizontally in combo with the Deadman - how is there an advantage of the Leg vise/Deadman over two of (say) Micheal Connor's vises - except that the Deadman slides to accomodate the job length. Surely you could have an MCW vise (or similar, depending on the jaw opening you require) at either end of the bench with a Sliding Deadman in between. Wouldn't this give the same performance as the Leg Vise, with probably even more versatility? That combo would actually allow a hugely long piece to be held - probably a metre or more longer than the bench (if you need that) because it would be held in three places (vise - deadman - vise)
It could so easily be that I am missing something here, but if so what is it?
Maybe a nomenclature confusion, but I'm not sure what you mean by a shoulder vise - do you mean like this one of Bill's? (which he calls a tail vise)Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
When the HNT jobbie came out I remember you saying that you felt that it would drive you nuts with the time required for the full travel. It takes about 5 seconds with a bit of practice - you roll the knob down the full V of the forefinger/thumb: start at the tip of the forefinger and end at the tip of the thumb, or in reverse. To secure the job it's literally just a flick of the knob, and the job is secure. If you wanted to, you could glue a hex nut onto the knob and use a power drill to really get a wriggle on. I actually have a dedicated small cordless drill for this purpose, but atm it's only for rapid travel of my Drill Press Cross Table.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
With all that in mind I also struggle with why a tail vise of massive holding power is required for use in planing. There's only so much pressure that you can put on a piece before it will bend (particularly a thin piece). Again, am I missing something here?? It wouldn't be unusual :B.
I think Groggy agrees with you!Quote:
Originally Posted by IanW
Nope, that's what I call a tail-vise too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
This is a shoulder vise:
Attachment 260415
It's Frank Klausz's, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind me showing it here. You can see how it gets its name, with that 'shoulder' sticking out to form the space for the travelling jaw. Then the screw sticks out even further, so p'raps now you understand why it made me fear for my future stud prospects....:o
You are absolutely correct, holding boards for planing requires only gentle pressure, as a rule. However, there are quite a few other jobs which may require a bit more of a twitch. One example that springs to mind is shaping cabriole legs. Another situation is holding irregular chunks of wood that are too uneven or too wild-grained to run over the buzzer, & these need a lot of pressure to hold securely while I attack them with a scrub plane or draw-knife (or even a hatchet, at times!) to get a level surface to work from.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I also use my tail vise jaws a lot. They offer a clamp that is 90* to front vise jaws, so perfect for presenting saw handles & suchlike while I go to work on them with rasps & scrapers & sandpaper.
Attachment 260416Attachment 260417
An all-wood tail vise is pretty 'massive' because you need pretty generously-sized membrs for stiffness & to get lots of glueing surface on the joints that cop a lot of stress. That is, if you want it to stay together & function well for a generation or three.
Anyway, some of this belongs in the new thread on home-made vises.....
Cheeers,
As apprentices our benches were fitted with a leg vise, a face vise and a tail vise at each end of the bench. The leg vise was never used.
Phillipe Jaruski, Andreas Scholl, Alfred Deller: all shoulder vice users. You might be onto something Ian.
Highland Woodworking has come back with a quote for shipping on the Pattern Maker's Vise. One unit is $375, and for two it is $430 or $520 depending on the location. Shipping is by Fedex.
They do not believe that sea freight is viable for these due to the relatively low weight, and all the add on costs for sea freight with customs clearance etc (and that would be right).
What about an intermediary like Shipito ?Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
highland to CA is $14.00 then TNT to Oz. can be about 11 to 18 dollars per kg
I'll throw my two cents in. I have purchased the Benchcrafted leg, wagon and moxon vices. I will be adding the Ancora chain mechanism when I build my bench (still waiting on some hoop pine for it). The quality of the vices are first class along with the service (had a wheel miss QC blemished and replaced quickly by BC). As they're not installed I can't comment much beyond that but I will give my reasoning for choosing this combo.
I read several books in planing my workbench and had greatly underestimated the importance of ergonomics in the use of a bench. In my shop I will use the bench for two main purposes, planing/jointing boards and cutting joints. For planing the bench height is important in allowing efficient use of the plane. I think this is why many are using leg vises rather than a face vise i.e. if I want to plane the edge of a 200mm wide board I can keep the edge at the optimum height with the extra depth the leg vise gives. The reasons for having a wagon vise have been discussed by wiser heads than mine in the thread already. The sentiment seems to be 'How did I live without one?'
Why the moxon? Cutting joints or sawing full stop is more efficiently done at a height greater than that of planing ( at least that's my understanding from my reading). The moxon raises the work and can clamp wide pieces. Again, this is a reason I didn't plan a face vise for my bench (too low). So that's my reasoning for my combo. Why did I chose Benchcrafted over Horvarter? I would have loved the quick release but like Brett I couldn't find many reviews for the Horvarter. I was also concerned about the longevity of the mechanism as I noted it had plastic parts in it. I know plastics these days can be made to outlast just about anything but I just couldn't bring myself to purchase it and went with the simpler but in my mind more solid and proven Benchcrafted hardware. I can't remember exactly how much I paid but think all the above was in the ballpark of $1300 delivered.
FYI Found a recent review on the Ancora chain mechanism here
I can recommend reading Christopher Schwarz's workbench books along with The Foundations of Better Woodworking by Jeff Miller if you're planning a bench. The book by Jeff doesn't address workbenches directly but gave me a great appreciation for the importance of body position in woodworking.
Hope that helps someone, Nathan.
Just Googled Moxon vise. Second entry is "Images of Moxon Vises".
I suggest everyone look at this. It has some wonderful pics and there
is plenty of inspiration for the inventive types.
I have read this whole thread through several times trying to get some
ideas to gel - or better still, solidify - in my cluttered mind.
Several things are apparent, the main one being that you don't need to
spend a great deal to have good vises with good gripping power.
Perhaps we get hung up on the word "professional" far too much, and we
go for looks - which usually means money.
Had a good look at the Pro Grip system that Damian uses.I can imagine
that in conjunction with a Zyliss ( or a Chinese copy of ) you would have
most of the gripping versatility you wold ever need.and you need not have
anything permanently anchored to your bench.
While I am flattered you see some value in the progrip please be aware they are not a substitute for a lot of the other things mentioned here. They are light duty clamps with plastic jaws. They do what they do very well indeed but what they do is limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by artme
As with many other things mentioned here they are a good solution if you've got the right problem, and useless otherwise. To paraphrase Cliff - hammer, nail....
So tell me this: If I set up a bench with a face vise at the front and the patternmakers vice at the end would that make a versatile combo ? The face vise (notice I'm switching between spellings :) would allow clamping flush to the apron and the patternmakers, well, does virtually everything else....
Just a thought...
I can imagine this. The "modern" leg vise is a far cry from one designed and build even 5 or so years ago. Without support for the parallel guide (the wheels introduced by BC), and the ability to do away with tensioning the chop via the holes in the parallel guide (e.g. the Ays chain adjuster), you would have a chop that drags on the ground (or hangs at an angle in the air) making it an effort to open or close, and one that needed stooping to poke a stick through a hole when used on different width boards. My "modern" leg vise is as effortless to use as any modern vise .... but has the advantage of clamping deep boards at a height comfortable to plane.Quote:
As apprentices our benches were fitted with a leg vise, a face vise and a tail vise at each end of the bench. The leg vise was never used.
Since Chris Schwarz first posted his interpretation of Moxon's vise, much has been written on forums about this vise, which raises work high enough to make sawing dovetails, especially, a more comfortable height. It was this vise, as I wrote earlier, that re-directed me in towards a leg vise. They make a great combination: the leg vise to hold work for planing at a comfortable height (low), and the Moxon to hold work at a comfortable height for marking and sawing (high). The twin screw vise is now both too high and too low (you can work out which is which :) ).Quote:
Why the moxon? Cutting joints or sawing full stop is more efficiently done at a height greater than that of planing ( at least that's my understanding from my reading). The moxon raises the work and can clamp wide pieces.
The articles I have written about Moxon design are on my website. They come from my experience in dovetailing. There are a few original contributions there as well that work for me and may work for you.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...etailVise.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...rtheMoxon.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...l_452342f9.jpg
I worked with Jim Ritter on the prototype of the AYS leg vise chain adjuster, and there is an article that details its installation: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...nAdjuster.html
Later I added a "parallel guide guide" (no, that's not an echo :) ): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...uideGuide.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad..._m6b2f1d93.jpg
It may seem that there are many bits-and-pieces that are needed to make the leg vise a viable tool. Another way of looking at it, however, it that these are the pieces that modernises the leg vise and makes it an effortless and valuable user.
The Zyliss?
I have had one for over 30 years. At one time it was all I had - we lived in an two-bedroomed apartment and no space for a workshop. I had a tool chest and the Zyliss. The kitchen table became my work bench. The Zyliss was fantastic under these conditions. It was tossed into a corner when we eventually moved to a house and I could build a bench with a proper vise (Record 52 1/2). Chalk-and-cheese. In recent years I have rediscovered the Zyliss. It has functioned as a vise for metal work and filing saws - but not woodworking.
Do you need a patternmaker's vise? Do you work with odd-shaped pieces and carve?Quote:
So tell me this: If I set up a bench with a face vise at the front and the patternmakers vice at the end would that make a versatile combo ?
While it is tempting to start out with tools (bench and vise included) that you believe you may use one day, we often end up taking a different path in our woodworking careers. It is personal experience that determines what works for oneself. Advice helps - when you know the questions to ask. Slavishly following the lead of others does not. Live with a basic set up for a while. There are always work-arounds to aid one - that is the greatest teacher of them all!
Work arounds ...
http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/me...9/459952_4.jpg
http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/me...9/459952_9.jpg
Link: Face Vise Appliances for Tapered and Beveled Stock *LINK* *PIC*
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks again Derek. The workaround for the pattern maker's vise looks very useful for odd shapes. The PMV still has a couple of tricks up its sleeve (like tilting to the horizontal, and spinning for a vertical hold, not to mention a Stepover Toehold:D), but OTH it's a 30kg monster with a comensurate freight bill.
The penny may be finally starting to tinkle with leg vises: primary use is being able to hold the edge of deep or high boards at variable height to maintain comfortable planing height (whilst clamping a significant length of the board, not just the top). Are there any other capabilities that other vises don't have (not to say that that isn't worthwhile)?
I bought one of those knock-off alluminium vices at the Sydney WWW show many years ago. Mine is manufactured by a company called Artu and goes by the rather silly name of "Mr. StronG." I bought it last century I think and for the life of me I can't remember how much it cost. Probably around $60 - $70.
It, and other look-a-likes are versaltile, convenient for thinner workbenches and portable. Strong they are not! I have mine set up because I have a makeshift table that I use as a secondary worksatation: You can't really call it a bench as it is a mobile trolley.
One of the clamps broke and you can see in the picture where I improvised a replacement from steel. The quick release mechanisim has to be held manually while the vice is tightened otherwise it jumps the thread. I have never used any of the accessories pictured. In fact I have dug out the instructions to see what they are and how they can be used. I would not be paying $400+ for such a vice.
It does have a place, but I don't think it is on a heavy duty workbench. Having said that, it takes about 10secs to remove it.
Attachment 260761Attachment 260762Attachment 260763
Regards
Paul
I have been following this thread with interest and it got me thinking about why I like my leg vise so much.
I have used a Face Vise (Record 53E) for 13 years or so, then a year ago I took the plunge and did a mini bench renovation, which, amongst other things, resulted in replacing the face vise with a leg vise.
The leg vise is there to stay. For me it has significant advantages over the face vise. (Not that I didn't like the old Record, we did good work together...)
The advantages of a leg vise over a face vise that I see are:
1. Increased depth above screw for holding work (as noted by Derek). This means that when edge planing a wide board, instead of just gripping the front end of the board in the face vise and supporting the rest by deadmen; I can project the board forward of the vise with less length trailing behind to be supported - and still be at a comfortable planing height.
2. Increased holding power. Every face vise is incumberred with the problem of racking. By virtue of the fact that the workpiece to be held is located to the side or above the vise screw, when the screw is tightened, the whote moveable jaw will try to skew or rack. This racking is resisted by guide bars sliding in sleeves. The friction between the guide bar and the sleeve increases the more they "rack". The amount of friction depends on the stiffness, hardness and smoothness of the guide bars; the effective length of the sleeves; and the tolerance and smoothness of the fit between the bars and their sleeves (all face vises are not created equal!). In practice this is not too much of a problem - it just means that a certain amount of the force used to tighten the vise is lost in overcoming this friction. It also means that there is some limit to the force that can be applied, because as you tighten the handle the guide bars continue to skew until they bind up.
[I know that this racking can be countered by placing a block, which is the same as the workpiece thickness, on the opposite side of the screw, but this is not always possible, eg., when holding work above the screw.]
Leg vises, on the otherhand, are free from the problem of racking. The force applied applied to the handle is transmitted directly to the workpiece being held and the pin at the bottom of the chop (or chain, or St Peter's Cross, or other pin eliminating device). If the screw is 1/3rd the way down the chop, then 2/3rds of the force generated at the handle is applied to the workpiece and 1/3rd to the pin. The more you tighten, the more force applied where you want it. The only limit to this is the stiffness and/or modulus of rupture of the chop and/or leg!
All of this may seem a bit academic, because both types of vise will clearly do the job. However, the joy is in the practice. The light touch required to secure a piece in a leg vise is beautiful to behold. To be able to clamp solid a piece with just a nudge of a tommy bar or the spin of a wheel, is truly a revelation. Once you experience it, you start looking around for things to hold in your vise - just for the fun of it!
3. Lower Position of the Handle. I thought that this would be a pain, but it has proved to be a benefit. My leg vise is made using an el cheapo metal screw (the same as used for a tail vise) with a steel tommy bar type handle. I can pull the bar up and tighten the vise by hand or let the bar drop and it is in just the right position to tighten with my knee. This means that I can position awkward or heavy pieces with two hands, while tightening with me knee. Works a treat!
The lower handle position also opens the opportunity to use a wheel à la the BenchCrafted version.
4. Lower Cost. This not necessarily so, because there are leg vises available which cost a lot more than a good serviceable face vise, but if you make your own, using modest hardware they can be very cheap. They are simple in principle and simple in design. Easy to build into a new bench or to retrofit to an existing workbench.
In my case, the screw was given to me by a mate that I shared a workshop with - he bought it at a sale for $4.90 and never got around to using it. The chop came from a bit of old stringy bark lying down in the paddock. The rest was just surplus from other jobs.
The vise only cost time - and not too much of that!
In summary. I know its horses for courses, and what works for me might not work for you, but for me a leg vise is the way to go. The only thing I miss about the Record 53E (and only a little bit) is the quick release. The 53E is quite a behemoth so it was a bit of heft to pull it out.
I loved the leg vise even when it had a pin to relocate in the bottom beam. I have since modified things so that it operates pinless. [ Not an AYS chain, or St Peter's Cross but another system - I may describe it sometime]. It is now a dream.
This is my first post. Sorry if I got a bit long winded.
Mark