Thread: A few thoughts about Ornamental Turning and design?

You could do all that, but I suspect the wood dust etc would not do much for your machine tools. I would be inclined given your current work shop equipment, to make some version of a OT lathe. They can be small and its easy to separate the two work shops.

I have a small shop with some machines tools in one side and a couple of wood lathes as well plus bandsaws etc.

What I am doing [ not done as yet] Is to partition my two shops with clear plastic strips around 150mm or 6" wide over lapping 50%. I have a gable roof or pitched roof to the shop. So here I will leave a sizable gap for ventilation at the apex.

This will separate the two and I will draw air/ventilation from the machine shop side to the wood turning area and on to the outside world. This should keep the metal side clear of the dust and also from a OHS perspective keep the wood side clear as well .

Hughie,
Thanks for your thoughts, With over 50 views this morning and no replys to a first post on this forum I thought somehow I'd insulted everyone unknowingly.

Nope, There shouldn't be any wood dust as I only want to do O.T. with metal, (brass and stainless) Plus given where I live there's no chance of making my shop larger or adding a seperate wood shop. I'm using a spare bedroom for my shop, 10' 5" x 11'5". I'm embarassed to say I have 2 metal working lathes, An 1100 lb 3/4 sized Bridgeport clone mill, An Atlas horizontal mill, and a South Bend 7" shaper in that area along with the needed tooling. I'm about out of room. So that's why I had the idea to build a Rose Engine headstock as an addition to my metal lathe to be set up and used only when needed. It's not ideal but then my shop size isn't either.

I've yet to even see a rose engine working in person let alone operate one, So I was hopeing for everyones constructive criticism and any thoughts they had, Or anything I haven't allowed for yet in my design ideas. Even some rough ideas about how much the distance needs to be between the headstock bearings to allow for patterns or the minimum needed to allow the pumping action on the spindle. ANY information would be very usefull to me. I'd much rather design and build this once instead of thinking later I should or could have..............?

Pete

Originally Posted by Miner

Hughie,
Thanks for your thoughts, With over 50 views this morning and no replys to a first post on this forum I thought somehow I'd insulted everyone unknowingly.


Pete

I'm one of the viewers and not insulted at all. I don't know much about this area but am interested so I read but don't post.


Peter.

[Thanks for your thoughts, With over 50 views this morning and no replys to a first post on this forum I thought somehow I'd insulted everyone unknowingly.

OT forum is not real active and probably has not got a big following. A guys like find the rose engine lathe fascinating but really dont want to own one. Having said that I have always thought of bulding one just for the challenge of doing so. Must be my tool making background makes me a bit of metal working tragic.

Nope, There shouldn't be any wood dust as I only want to do O.T. with metal, (brass and stainless) Plus given where I live there's no chance of making my shop larger or adding a seperate wood shop. I'm using a spare bedroom for my shop, 10' 5" x 11'5". I'm embarassed to say I have 2 metal working lathes, An 1100 lb 3/4 sized Bridgeport clone mill, An Atlas horizontal mill, and a South Bend 7" shaper in that area along with the needed tooling. I'm about out of room. So that's why I had the idea to build a Rose Engine headstock as an addition to my metal lathe to be set up and used only when needed. It's not ideal but then my shop size isn't either.

I would say you admirably set up to do this, more so than most folks. Yep it would be a bit squeezy in there, sorta sounds like mine

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f22/ro...unning-104036/ have alook at this guy, he has a very good machine shop set up. Hes got a website somewheres but I cant find it

I've yet to even see a rose engine working in person let alone operate one, So I was hopeing for everyones constructive criticism and any thoughts they had, Or anything I haven't allowed for yet in my design ideas. Even some rough ideas about how much the distance needs to be between the headstock bearings to allow for patterns or the minimum needed to allow the pumping action on the spindle. ANY information would be very usefull to me. I'd much rather design and build this once instead of thinking later I should or could have..............?

Well that makes sense, pick through the existing designs and make imporovments where you can as you go along. Thats my general modis operandi with most stuff I do.

I would real interested in seeing your progress, keep us in the loop.


Oh! welcome aboard. I spent some time in BC during the 70's loved every minute of it.

Hugie,
Thanks again, I was beginning to think the same about just how active this forum is. I really don't like posting the same questions on more than one forum but I may join and re-post my thoughts over on the Ornamental Turners International forum. It appears that they have far more OTs with metal working equipment. That's certainly not meant as an insult to anyone here. I'd think the majority by far of OT's are woodworkers.

LOL, Thanks for the link to Old-Biker-UK (Mark) and his Rose Engine build. A few years ago I found his website. At that time he hadn't built a Rose Engine yet but he had built a Geometric Chuck. That alone is no small and easy job. It's also a project I'd like to do in the future. I also think Mark is a hell of a craftsman. His method for making the persperex rosettes were almost exact to how I'd figured on building mine. Allthough his bump type rosettes using studs and acorn style nuts were a new and clever idea to me.

For now this Rose Engine project is a bit down the road. But once I start it I'll be sure to post my progress. I'm in the pre-planning for planning stage right now.

Thanks for the welcome. I doubt you'd recognise much of Vancouver now as there's been huge changes since the 70's. Maybe a lot of it not for the better in my opinion.

Pete

Pete, Yeah I collected alot of info thinking I would build one, nah I was just kidding myself, so I passed it onto Wheelin [Ray] . It still fascinates me the effects that can achieved. But I have more than enough on my plate at the present and well into the future..
Good luck with the project.

cheers

Hi Pete

I too am interested in OT and also plan to get there myself someday. You will find that OT has a very small following so on any site or forum you won't find the traffic that occur with other hobbies and passions. I belong to the OTI and there are about 250 +/- members so in some ways it is a solitary pursuit.

I think I can envision what you want to do and have a suggestion or two.

Rather than try to make your RE headstock rock and have the spindle pump, use the tapered roller bearings and instead have the entire headstock incorporate linear bearings or slides at the base to provide the two motions. You have a constant tool height and there are no pattern distortions due to the short arc you would end up with your present plan.

Rather than mounting the rosettes between the headstock bearings like the traditional ones do, mount them as needed at the outboard end like Jon Magill did with his MDF Rose engines. Most of the time you only use one at at time and occasionally two and can change them and modify them without breaking down the entire headstock.

If you don't want to play with wood there are a couple of plastics that look good when decorated. Alternate Ivory and Cast Acrylic Rod work well. Bonnie Klein makes very nice pieces from the Cast Acrylic. I bought the blue one below from her at the 2010 OTI Symposium. It is about 1 3/4" / 45mm tall and the ornamentation is inside the little box. Machinable wax works well for quick experiments. I have also seen a couple pieces done in pewter that look good when done.



Have fun with your project.
Pete

Hi Pete,
You and I have posted back and forth a few times on another forum a few years ago.

Yeah suprisingly OT does have a small following as far as actuly doing it.

Your ideas about using linear bearings are damned clever. That would definatly help with the rigidity required for OT metal. I've had to give myself multiple mental forehead slaps because I should have thought of that. Also mounting the rosettes on the outboard spindle end like what's used for a plain change gear lathe are ideal due to as you said not having to break down the entire headstock. That idea speeds up and simplifies things a lot.

Yeah I have thought about the use of some of the plastics also and Corian too. I haven't researched it enough, But it's my understanding that Dupont will only suppy the proper glue to licenced dealers for building up blocks of whatever thickness is needed. I also haven't totally ruled out using wood on a limited basis along with a shop vac exhausted outside.

Since we both live in the same province/country have you bought any of the S.O.T.'s dvd's? Their in a format that isn't compatiple with our normal dvd's but there must be a way to convert them.

Again thanks for the ideas. Their very much appreciated.

Pete

Yeah I have thought about the use of some of the plastics also and Corian too. I haven't researched it enough, But it's my understanding that Dupont will only suppy the proper glue to licenced dealers for building up blocks of whatever thickness is needed. I also haven't totally ruled out using wood on a limited basis along with a shop vac exhausted outside.

Pete,
Dunno about in Canada but over in Oz theres a lot of off cuts to be had for a low cost or zero from various kitchen makers etc. They also have the glue etc to join, most [ well here] are rather curious about turning Corian and often will let you rummage through the scrap box as most of it goes into the garbage anyway.

Hughie,
Thanks for the tip. I'll need to check that out next time I'm in the big city. If the counter top manufacturers knew how much people pay for Corian pen blanks they wouldn't be throwing the sink cutouts away. I'll not be mentioning that if I find any suppliers.

Pete

Hi Miner welcome to the OT section and the forum itself.

I have been away home a week and only just seen this thread, to me your set up is already more than what is needed to get you going in OT. A lathe and mill (I wish I had the room and then the machines). Of course this depends on the type of work you want to produce. Oh and metal wise its called Engine Turning.

For A Rose Engine doing metal work watch this video from RGM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VKASuwatG0&feature



I just found this as I was doing a search for CNC Rose Engine

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3d0fueNr30&feature=related"]5 axis cnc routed Pineapple file - YouTube[/ame]

In this section on OT if you go back through some of the posts you'll find mentioned Alan Battersby and Bill Ooms they can also be found on the OTI CNC section.

Like Hughie says Rose Engines and OT are fascinating I enjoy the little I do using the ones I borrow from club members here.
I started build mine 3 or so years ago, space and time and health caused a slow progress. Recently I have had a spurt of good fortune with members encouragement, such as Hughie passing on usable materials bits and pieces. I picked up an old Sher Drill press which may become the basis for my set up. Even today I got a further boost with 2 more motors with reduction gear boxes, some steel blocks.

Whats the type of OT work your aiming for just surface decoration like the RGM video or shaping as in the 2nd video.

G'day Wheelinround,
Thanks for the welcome. Now that's a pretty complicated 5 axsis cnc. I'm not contemplating anything like that...............Well at least for now anyway.

I've seen a few of the YouTube videos about OT, But that RGM one is new to me. Awesome video. Thanks for the link. I didn't know OT in metal was called Engine Turning. They use the same term to describe overlapping swirls that are done on metal with grinding paste or wire rotating brushes and with standard metal working machines. Even a drill press with a simple spaceing fixture will do the work.

Yeah you are correct that with what I have right now I could do some limited Ornamental Turning. The more I read and learn about OT then the more possibilities I see with the equipment I already have.

Owning a metal working lathe and mill? Yes they obviously have some great benifits, But at least for a mill it's relentless on the requirements for cutting tools that you don't already own, Accesories and attachments can be VERY expensive depending on the complexity and quality. It never seems to end. And that's for a manual mill. CNC can in some ways be cheaper as the machines movements do a lot of things that on a manual mill would require a seperate accessory like a dividing head or rotary table. LOL, But they make those cnc'd too. You could easilly blow $50,000 on a fairly small industrial cnc mill. Then you have to buy tooling on top of that. Hobby type cnc can of course be done far cheaper. My computer skills are not even close to what's needed for that.

I'll for sure go thru this forum and check out the people you've mentioned. I'm positive I'll learn a lot.

Mostly I'd just like to get my feet wet in Ornamental Turning, A Rose Engine looked simpler than a full ornamental lathe. While the RGM video showing really beautifull Guilloche work is nice, It doesn't appeal to me as much as Ornamental Turning.

Normaly I wouldn't post the same question on more than one forum, But after looking thru the Ornamental Turners International forum I decided to post my questions there too because it seems like far more members have the capability to machine metal. Suprisingly the first person to reply to my post was David Lindow who builds and sells the Lindow/White Rose Engines. He's changed my design thoughts a huge ammount. My inexperience about OT shows. Between people on this forum and the OTI I'm learning a lot.

Pete

Pete if you can afford one of the Lindlow White machines make sure you post here when its assembled

As you are looking into OT using metal can you describe or maybe show other things which have been done or you have pics of so we can help more.

Hi Wheelin,
Yeah I can/could afford a L/W rose engine, But my main issue is, While I'm ok with the cost, I'm space poor in my shop. My wife and I are in the middle of an extensive home reno that appears to be an endless time and money sucking pit. I made a very stupid error in judgement and decided to reno my shop 2 years ago along with the home reno. The wife unit thinks (and to be honest I have to agree) that the home reno has priority. So I'm sitting here in a 3/4 finished home reno and a shop that needs extensive work so it's even usable. That was a very,very stupid move on my part.

But, Since I've first posted my questions and thoughts here, And along with the input I got from David Lindow, I've started to re assess my ideas about building a Rose Engine rigid enough to be used for metal. David advised me he's done some of it, But he's positive that the huge increase in cutting time (10-20 times longer) wouldn't make it cost effective time wise for what you end up with. Since I have no experience with OT and he has years, Then I really have to think he's correct as far as rose engine OT goes.

My original redesign for my shop was to allow for additional equipment that I've bought. My shop size is 10'6"x11'6." A mostly complete list of what equipment HAS to fit within it is, An 1100 lb 3/4 sized Bridgeport clone mill, An Emco compact 5 lathe and rear mounted mill, A 500 lb 11"x27" lathe with a rear mounted 150 lb mill, A 7" South Bend shaper, A small Atlas horizontal mill, And a generic Chinese horizontal metal cutting bandsaw. Bench grinders etc,etc. I also want and need open bench top space to buy and use a good quality 18"x24" granite surface plate. On top of this I have the absolute need for ample drawer storage and protection space for all the tooling and measureing tools.I still need some open bench top space to do work also. It looks very tough, But on paper my redesign works. I've got more than enough experience to allow enough working room. So I do know my original layout will work. Maybe? with some shifting and tightening up just a fraction in multiple areas it just might be possible to gain enough extra space to shoehorn a Lindow/White Rose Engine in? I'd still have the wood dust issues, But with some thought, I think I can work around those in a logical way. A Rose Engine would be an addition to my shop and not the whole reason for having a shop. I don't think I'd use it so much that the time setting up to protect everything else would become a tiresome issue. And I also think I'd use it enough to justify the cost. Obviously I need to make a decision soon about buying from Lindow White and allow for it, Or go with my original thought and build one for use on my larger lathe. Reducing or selling any of my equipment to fit a Rose Engine in is not an option in my opinion.

LOL, And yes. For sure if I buy a L/W rose engine I'll post pictures of the details. I think I owe everyone a lot who has posted in this thread. As expensive as tools like this are for us in North America, I've read more than enough about how you Aussies and also NZs get positively screwed by the tool dealers over in your countrys. For what it's worth you have my sympathy.

As far as an example of what interests me for non rose engine work? If you have the T.D. Walshaw book about OT, The front cover picture shows some examples that could be done in metal without buying or making much more than a few cutting tools in addition to what I already have. I recently bought a Vertex universal dividing head. I need to redesign and build a replacement X axis leadscrew bearing hanger with a cutout in it to mount different gears to the end of the X axis leadscrew on my milling machine.. That would allow driving the dividing head for rotation along with the X axis Table leadscrew at the same time. Think of a helix or a really streched out thread and you can then visulise what it's capable of. One of the reasons among many that I bought it was for future OT type work. Equipment like this isn't as fast to use as any of the old OT type lathes and accessories But it can do a lot of the same work.

Pete