Thread: 3D printing, small workshop, big changes!

No offence but having just had a good mate cark it I’d rather go back to Jones Island and shoot flaming arrows at a petrol soaked box floating up the Manning and after we’d set the riverbank alight have a few more cool drinks.
I well remember a design dude raving about a 3D printer 30 or so years back, over night it printed a 1 to 100 scale model of a chair he’d dreamed up.

I made prototypes you could sit on in less time.
Brave new world, print your subs then be game enough to go down 100 feet in them
H.

Recently, a young engineer contacted me and asked if I could assist him with the fitout of his new camper van. He proudly informed me that he had completed all the design work and all we had to do was "knock it all together.The wonders of 3D, you'll be impressed old fella."
Well I wasn't. It was the most simplistic child-like design that made no attempt to overcome or allow for angles, slopes or curves of the interior of the van. He then informed me that he had tried to make a start on the construction himself and soon found he was in all sorts of trouble.
Our first job was a story stick for each side and a set of curve templates, a few measurement and we were underway.
What happened to the 3D print outs? Buggered if I know.

Hi everyone,

I hope you're all well. (Yes, even you RustyNail and Clear Out).

Ok, so RustyNail and Clear Out clearly don't like 3D printing, and ClearOut may be in the midst of grieving for a friend. I did say that 3D printing isn't for everyone, and I respect that some find it a poor choice. There are plenty of situations where that is definitely the case.

Before we begin... No offence? Really?

I'm not offended, although most people use "no offence" as a pretext to say something in an unnecessarily harsh and/or generally inconsiderate manner. I find that using "no offence" to start a statement is rarely effective in that goal, so I don't use it myself. Personally, I think it's best to simply state facts, like "I'd rather chop my own arm off than watch a game of cricket". It doesn't offend anyone, and expresses my feelings on the matter. Mostly because I think sport should be played, not watched. Crazy, I know. That said, if you're supporting a friend or family member from the sidelines, then that's just being a good friend/family member. Fortunately, I don't know any cricketers, I'm more of an archery/cycling/hiking kind of guy, so... my arms are safe.

Back to 3D printing... and beyond.

The arguments against 3D printing posted so far, could be used against any wood working tool if used improperly. If you don't know how to use something, or haven't considered something important in any design and/or build stages (regardless of whether you use story sticks, pen and paper, a drafting table, or CAD software, or scrap wood spacers in assembly)... then of course, the outcome won't be ideal.

Blaming the tech and tools (whether in the design or building phase)... you know, I think there's an old saying about that.

Also, "I can build it faster...and sit on it...." Ok... we've all acknowledged the fact that 3D printing is slow, because it's a technology that's still in it's infancy. I don't know of a single printer large enough to make a stool fit for an adult. They're designed to make small things, or at least small parts that combine to make larger things. I get that anyone can screw some planks together to build a bigger object of load bearing nature in mere minutes. We're not printing whole furniture pieces yet, so that's an apples and oranges comparison. Furniture is a bad "use case" for 3D printers at the moment, as is using a sander to replace a thickness planer. Both work, but they certainly are not equivalent in speed.

Constructive criticism...

Railing against a tool, or technology because you don't like it.... how does that help others? I'll use anything that gets the job done.. whether that's a mallet and a chisel at one end, or a 3D printer, a CNC router, a laser cutter, or a CNC mill with 1/100,000ths of a millimetre accuracy at the other.... with table saws, drills, and pocket hole joinery somewhere in the middle. I'm not trying to pose as any sort of superior wood worker, because I'm not. I'm just a guy who uses whatever's available and tries new things (sometimes, even for a living). My thread here is merely my attempt to offer a chance for interested parties to take advantage of my design, see how my project has gone, and use it if/where appropriate for them.

I hope to inspire others, not cut them down for their choice of methodology. If you don't like something, perhaps explaining situations where they aren't appropriate, yet balancing it with situations where they are, is a more informative and constructive approach.

Finally, I genuinely hope you, Clear Out are getting support if/when you need it. No judgements either way, and respect for anyone who does whatever's necessary to face problems.


Take care out there, everyone!
Hamish.

I've been toying with the idea of buying a small 3D printer. I found this an eye-opener as to how long the printing takes. I knew they were slow, but I didn't realise they were that slow. Can I ask how much the filament would have cost you to do the three drawer inserts?

I like the idea of some of what could be done, but I am not sure it's for me...not for now anyway.

Originally Posted by JZG

I've been toying with the idea of buying a small 3D printer. Can I ask how much the filament would have cost you to do the three drawer inserts?

Hi there JZG,

That's a great question, and one few potential newbies ask.

Firstly, these drawers are 700mm deep, 558 +/- 2mm wide, and 85mm high. These are not small drawers. So it's important to understand scale. Also, since I'm putting metal screws/bolts/nuts/whatever in these containers, it's important to realise I thicken the walls of larger bins to handle the increased load, this uses more plastic... and takes more time.

The three drawers worth of bins/boxes have used about 10Kg of filament. I'm currently using "the cheap stuff" where I'm using Sunlu's(a brand of filament) buy 6, get 10 deal on eBay (with free delivery). Which, depending on the type of filament, and colour can ultimately cost between $15-24 per Kg. I'd put it at about $163 all told. There are far more expensive brands of filament which can be upwards of $70, even $100 per Kg, but you'd only do that for professional prototyping where detail really matters, or where some specific need for flexibility, impact resistance, strength, UV resistance, or even the lightest possible weight may be important factors.

But let's look at the price to value ratio of non-printed options...

If you have a look at the branded "storage boxes" (DeWalt, Stanley, whatever) to compare prices. I was horrified when I found this one:

MILWAUKEE PACKOUT™ Foam Insert 48228451 | Total Tools (and that's $28 just for the foam... but is arguably the most similar product in function to my bins)

That's already roughly 20% of the price I've paid for the 10kg of filament I've used for all three drawers... and is roughly half a drawer's footprint and even then, half the height. So at 20% of the price for a quarter of the volume of one drawer. (Roughly 1/12th of all three drawers.... So 8.33%).

That's paying 2.4 TIMES the price for the volume... and you don't even get a plastic shell.

What about commercially available storage bins at Bunnings?

Just a moment... $5.12 a unit, for 200g of plastic, (from Bunnings' specs) that's $25.60/kg....

That's about 2% of the 3 drawers of volume, for 3.15% of the price. So a little over 50% more expensive by organized volume.... and about as much by plastic cost too. Pretty similar whichever way you calculate it.



Sure, you can walk into a store and buy it, but if you're in a cramped work space where every cubic millimetre matters, the standard containers aren't tailored to your space, so you're going to waste more space than you'd think, so you'll do without, or put things in bad places (I know I would) and just know that wasted efficiency and cost adds up...


Your mileage may vary.... a lot!

You don't have to print things my way... but I'm a bit of an "over-engineer.... errr... er?!" Hehehe.

There are faster ways to print in 3D....

There are two different types of 3D printers that home users typically buy...

The classic type is the filament based models (FFF, FFM & FDM are some of the acronyms which largely describe the same thing) which uses, spools of plastic filament, squeeze it through a hot nozzle, and lay it on top of the plastic that's already been laid like a brick layer would build a wall. This is the cheapest to run, and often has larger "build volumes" (maximum possible print size) for the money but is also the slowest. Yet they're improving every year.

The resin based printers are the other common type. (SLS/SLA are common terms) They use lasers to selectively harden an epoxy like resin in specific shapes, and offer great detail that can look as good as injection moulding with a little work. However, the printers have significantly smaller build volumes for the money (and go up almost exponentially in price as you get bigger). Resin printers cost a lot more to run, generally stink to high heaven with fumes (a carbon filter and/or extraction fan to the outdoors is highly recommended) and will inevitably make a mess. But they are often much faster to print... just note that you'll have to wash the excess resin off, and then "cure" the resin fully.. usually using a box that has UV lights inside. So there are additional steps which add time.

Fast filament printing... not exactly an oxymoron.

Now, please note, there's a lot of variables. I could make the dividers faster, with my smallest ones printing (as we speak) in about 90 minutes in far-from-fastest configurations since I'm only tweaking the settings, and taking advantage of some updates that came out over the last couple of days. But I'm going for quality over speed since I'm testing the printer's accuracy and long-term reliability. There is substantial room for improvement in terms of run times.

My current settings are:

Printer type: Bed-slinger (this is the older type where the whole heat bed moves forwards and back, like a fixed gantry styled CNC router), the faster new models are "Core-XY" which are designed differently, more like a moving gantry CNC with a build plate that's lowered vertically as it prints. )

Speed (60mm/second.. this is quite slow, and most printers from the last 5 years can easily handle this)

Nozzle: 0.4mm (standard for most filament printers.. a balance that probably prioritizes quality over speed to some degree.. but new systems can compensate for this and print similar quality in shorter times)

Layer 0.15mm, almost as fine as a typical layer height can get... it's really only down to 0.1mm and then you run into flow-rate issues.

Infill ratio: 50% (this is quite a bit higher than the standard 15%)

Perimeter thickness: 4mm (probably about 3-4 times the default)

However, if I sacrifice detail and surface quality I could switch from the default 0.4mm diameter nozzle to a 0.6mm one, and that will likely halve the time required on any print... and make it stronger.

Similarly, I can set the printer to print in 0.2mm layer height, even 0.3mm... as opposed to 0.15mm, that can boost things by as much as an additional 30-100%

I can also crank the printer speed to 250mm/second... that said.. because of the short distances traveled, and acceleration curves, the top speeds are seldom achieved in the real world, but if there's a lot of hopping between laying filament down, there can be significant gains again.

I can reduce the amount plastic used (saving more time) by lowering infill ratios, and using thinner perimeters.

Of course, each of these settings has some sort of trade off or cost associated. Some come at trivial difference, while others can make things much more painful and error prone.

Naturally, if you print smaller prints, this will inherently save you time... but that depends on what you want to print... and what you want to store in each bin.

What filament printer is the fastest?

Since I'm reviewing and comparing a prototype printer, I've been keeping a tentative eye on the overall market.

If you want sheer speed, the Bambu brand is touted to be amongst the fastest pre-made printers. The C1 Carbon, is perhaps the fastest and most capable, since it's Bambu's flagship model... but I'd actually strongly consider the P1S (not P1P) because it has all the speed, noticeably lower price, (you could even get the multi-material unit that allows you to change filament colours, or use dissolvable support materials) and still save hundreds over buying a C1 Carbon... the P1S and does almost everything the C1 does. However, I'm a little concerned that Bambu brand is still so new, so long-term reliability hasn't been established (at least to my standards) at the time of writing.... and I've listened patiently to some pretty long-winded complaints about Bambu's customer service...

However, I've got friends who love their Bambu's... and a friend who has given up on Bambu entirely and switched back to the reliable/venerable Prusa brand, and cheaper but familiar Creality's.. so there's some variation of opinions. I love my old Prusa, I've been able to fix and maintain things without asking customer support... ever. The parts are ubiquitous, the software is open source, and the "how to" guides on Prusa's site are not only detailed and amazingly easy to understand, you can read the mistakes others have made at every stage, and avoid them. Just remember, that if you're in a rush to start printing from day one, you need to buy the assembled Prusa printers... but if you want to learn the most, (and save money) then buying the kit is an extremely educational experience that has served me well with my ongoing Prusa (and other brands) printer maintenance.

Whenever choosing a printer, check the manufacturer sites, and have a look at their community, the frequency of updates, availability in Australia (if you're here in the land of Oz at least) and of course third party reviews to get a sense for what suits your needs. There are a lot of rubbish, grey-hair inducing, badly designed printers out there... like the Anet A8... renowned for burning homes down due to excessive cheapness. So I'd recommend sticking to the larger brands with local support wherever possible.

I hope this hasn't bored you to death... yes printing is slow.. but it's not like you have to monitor it at every moment. I typically ensure that the first few layers are working, then periodically check throughout the print. Some new printers will even notify you if there's a problem via app notifications.

Good luck, if/when you choose to get a printer!
Hamish.

Hamish,Its not that I dont like 3D. It is more the fact that the engineer thought it was going to be so impressive in this particular application. It wasn't. Therefore I was not impressed, neither with the application nor the naivety of the engineer. The only thing he got right was that I am an old fella.
I am not suggesting that 3D is rubbish, quite the contrary. I see a bright future for such technology but it sure didnt help much fitting out a multifaceted camper van.

I'm on here as someone who loves wood word, but only has minimal space. This means that I'm really restricted in the types of tools that I can buy based on how much space they take up or how much mess they create.
I have a broad selection of tools, clamps, the basics of electric tools (circular saw, drop saw, drills, drivers...etc). I've spent a lot of time interested in electronics and so have all the requisite tools there that don't take up much space either. My wishlist if I had the space would be everything from a large work bench to bench saws and lathes. I just don't have the space in the foreseeable future!

My summer project at the beginning of last year was to build a 3D printer. I have a very usable print area of 340 x 340 x 300. It is sealed and has a decent filter so I can print ABS parts. It really hurt the brain learning a whole new bunch of skills, but has definitely been worth it.

I've actually fixed more things around home and improved quality of life in more areas with a 3D printer than I could have come close to with the tools I have in my shed. It has made rapid prototyping of ideas easy and produces parts that look commercial. With the tools I have along with 3D printing then things get next level. I love what this guy does mixing woodwork and 3D printing or this guy mixes both for cooking. For now I personally need to lean on others for the big tools I can't fit, but it is probably appropriate to not have these tools given I'm a hobbyist and have limited space/time.

There is a type of person who may get a 3D printer and not learn CAD because there is so much out there that is designed by other people. Even professionally designed prints for building remote control cars...etc Just search Popular models for 3D enthusiasts | Free Downloads | Thangs
However, if you put in even a basic amount of effort and watch some tutorials from the likes of "Teaching Tech" then there is huge potential to make life easier for those who are makers!