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  1. #16
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    Once again, no disagreement from me. Safety is not really the issue per se, my point here was rather about risk/benefit.

    To put an RSJ with a 1 tonne lifting capacity in the middle of a 10m long barn requires a degree of engineering above and beyond what the standard "kit barn" will include. That outlay, and I have no idea what the $ amount might be but engineering doesn't normally come cheap, provides the ability to lift a load and move it along the center line of the shed. It gives you the ability to lift things "upstairs", but only if the design of the barn incorporates an upstairs floor that stretches the width of the building at some point, and if the upstairs can carry a suitable point load. It costs a chunk of cash, and brings with it the possibility (perhaps remote, depending on degree of care and "mistake avoidance" or luck) of structural damage to the shed. Fixing any such damage likely requires the removal of the contents of the shed, and significant expense.

    Compare that to a trip to H&F, where the outlay of $1100 buys you a 1T gantry, 2.3m wide and adjustable up to 3.6m high, on wheels and including chain block and girder trolley. It too will lift 1T and allow that load to be rolled along the center of the shed, but it will also allow the load to be rolled to a side bay, or outside should it be needed, thus removing the requirements that the middle of the shed be available for any lifting and that items to be lifted must be dead center (or close) in the shed. It does not risk damage to the shed if overloaded or abused, and can be sold or taken to a new property if desired. Being bolted together, it can be disassembled and taken to Grandma's house to load her piano on to a trailer. Or whatever. It doesn't allow things to be lifted upstairs, but otherwise would seem not only more versatile and lower risk, but also quite likely much cheaper.....

    Just my opinion!

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  3. #17
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    I had already thought about this last year. Having a 'light' crane would be super useful. But it's simple economics. A 1T rolling crane is a fraction of the whatever cost a fixed gantry would be. And I had also looked at the H&F model as an example. Although that is limited compared to a proper fixed gantry, it would be good enough for my hobby uses. It can be rolled around the entire workshop (in theory). I had not considered the potential issue of damaging the shed structure, which I think is a valid point. In the end it is just simple economics.

    What I am going for is the largest possible floor area. This will be at the expense of other nice to have things, like electricity, dust collection ducting - stuff like that. My reasoning is that the floor area will never be changed because I'll never afford to expand it. Whereas all the other things can be eventually acquired over the years if I save up.

    Now my reasoning might be seriously flawed. Let me know if you think so. But this is what is driving the whole idea of an American barn style. More floor area for less cost.
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  4. #18
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    I have a had a chat with a couple of shed suppliers. I must have got my wires crossed. If I have an American barn style then I have to have posts at 3.5m intervals lengthwise.
    Keep in mind that this is to reduce the build costs. I can have bays up to 6m with a wide span shed but the heavier steel ups the cost and in particular, it ups the build cost.
    I'll get some quotes to build an American barn style to complete the comparison.

    So now I'm wondering how much of a pain these posts every 3.5m will be. I haven't been into cars, etc, before. But even initially, I will want to move a trailer and such equipment in and out every week. What would be really nice would be to have the first 6m length clear as a wide span shed. Then finish it off with the American barn style to reduce costs. Although I'm uncertain if that reduces the build costs.
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  5. #19
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    The other thing you could do if you unsure is get the shed with the 3.5m post spacing - then once you know where/what etc you will be doing in your shed you can always retrofit a couple HD posts and trusses.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    I have a had a chat with a couple of shed suppliers. I must have got my wires crossed. If I have an American barn style then I have to have posts at 3.5m intervals lengthwise.
    Keep in mind that this is to reduce the build costs. I can have bays up to 6m with a wide span shed but the heavier steel ups the cost and in particular, it ups the build cost.
    I'll get some quotes to build an American barn style to complete the comparison.

    So now I'm wondering how much of a pain these posts every 3.5m will be. I haven't been into cars, etc, before. But even initially, I will want to move a trailer and such equipment in and out every week. What would be really nice would be to have the first 6m length clear as a wide span shed. Then finish it off with the American barn style to reduce costs. Although I'm uncertain if that reduces the build costs.
    Take a step back, have a cup of tea, and start again. Adding complexity (changing roof style halfway down) is unlikely to reduce costs. Also, the front "trailer storage" section is not where the posts will trouble you - you can store a trailer (or a lawn mower) in a shed that's only a few cm wider than the item to be stored. It's the WORKING bit of the shed that needs to be wide.

    As for those posts, it entirely depends on the complete design of the shed and your intended usage of it. If your taste in woodwork is pen turning, then you have no problems, but if you're making church pews or boardroom tables, then it might be an issue. Equally if your car of choice is an old Mini or a Suzuki Sierra (both great choices, by the way!) then 3.5m post spacing's won't be an issue if your center bay is at least a good "single garage" width (perhaps 4m minimum). You might not quite be able to spin the Sierra on dollies (it would be tight!), but you'll be OK. However, if you dream of owning a 1960's Cadillac....... need I say more? Caravans and campervans also cover an enormous size range! Tiny teardrop caravan behind an old MG, or 33' Airstream behind that damn Cadillac!

    Remember the design of the whole setup is important. A long apron on the front of the shed will allow you to spin a car that is too long to spin in the shed, but you need a grated drain and no step from shed to apron otherwise those dollies will get stuck! Equally, such a setup allows you to wheel out your drop saw or table saw (assuming you haven't built them in to benches) and break down large pieces of timber outside.

    The logic of getting a big shed and fitting out over time is sound, but not if it's the wrong shed for your requirements. Do you NEED a super-sized shed? Internal walls to separate woodwork from car painting are worthwhile because of contamination issues, and make sharing those spaces difficult, but mechanical work can co-exist with woodworking machinery on wheels. It would be great to have totally dedicated spaces with everything built in, but that's hard when you have multiple hobbies and limited cash and space. Perhaps a slightly smaller wide-span shed would be a better bet? My best advice is not to buy anything that you have doubts about. You will ALWAYS find issues/challenges with whatever you end up with, but you will beat yourself up about it far more if you knew about them in advance but did it anyway because "I must have it". Or maybe that's just me again!!

    Last thoughts. What about reducing the length of the shed, but continuing the roofline at the front as a "carport", the walls of which can be filled in later (and the doors relocated to the front!). Or something like a double garage with a skillion roof on the side, that again can be walled in later to form another room? My own experience is that the slab makes up a large part of the cost, and the "roof" is the bit that raises concern for DIY builds. So a large slab with a hayshed/machinery shed roof (no walls at all) gets the big expense and scary bit done, and then the walls can be put in DIY at your leisure. That's what I did with my garage/mancave/toyroom, and it also meant I could have weatherboard walls to match my house.....

  7. #21
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    I really like the "Barn" shed: For me it has style, but if you want clear spans, portal frame (click for an example) or truss is the way to go. However I have not examined relative costings.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #22
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    Out of curiosity, when the shed company said the barn style will be cheaper is that for supply only or installed as well?
    There is more work installing a barn style over a typical portal frame style farm shed so would expect the erection costs to be more??

  9. #23
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    Going back a bit to when Bill asked what an American Barn was I was thinking it was the gambrel roofed version, not a horse stable.

    I think you should drop a bunch of bricks or buckets down on a 3.5M grid and try park a car/ute among them and picture what it will be like carrying things past the posts. That will give you a better idea as to what you need.

    I would opt for the portal frame clear span and put a mezzanine at the back end if you want a storage/small hobby/office area above. Windows at height can be put in and a door plus small deck off the office would give you a place to have a drink and provide emergency egress if exterior stairs were added. The front half will be clear and open for any activity including using a portable gantry crane. Even a car lift if you like working under the beasts or the vertical storage lifts if you want to stack a few in a small area. Mezzanine could be added later but I would have the windows/exterior door done in the initial build.

    Pete

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    Once again, no disagreement from me. Safety is not really the issue per se, my point here was rather about risk/benefit.

    To put an RSJ with a 1 tonne lifting capacity in the middle of a 10m long barn requires a degree of engineering above and beyond what the standard "kit barn" will include. That outlay, and I have no idea what the $ amount might be but engineering doesn't normally come cheap, provides the ability to lift a load and move it along the center line of the shed. It gives you the ability to lift things "upstairs", but only if the design of the barn incorporates an upstairs floor that stretches the width of the building at some point, and if the upstairs can carry a suitable point load. It costs a chunk of cash, and brings with it the possibility (perhaps remote, depending on degree of care and "mistake avoidance" or luck) of structural damage to the shed. Fixing any such damage likely requires the removal of the contents of the shed, and significant expense.

    Compare that to a trip to H&F, where the outlay of $1100 buys you a 1T gantry, 2.3m wide and adjustable up to 3.6m high, on wheels and including chain block and girder trolley. It too will lift 1T and allow that load to be rolled along the center of the shed, but it will also allow the load to be rolled to a side bay, or outside should it be needed, thus removing the requirements that the middle of the shed be available for any lifting and that items to be lifted must be dead center (or close) in the shed. It does not risk damage to the shed if overloaded or abused, and can be sold or taken to a new property if desired. Being bolted together, it can be disassembled and taken to Grandma's house to load her piano on to a trailer. Or whatever. It doesn't allow things to be lifted upstairs, but otherwise would seem not only more versatile and lower risk, but also quite likely much cheaper.....

    Just my opinion!
    Your point is well made and taken. There is definitely a risk factor of damaging the shed if the crane is abused. And yes, limited to the centre run of the shed only. BUT without the beam and end posts you are back to a forest of posts dotted all over the place and that is what the OP wanted to avoid. The person who is stupid enough to abuse the crane will probably be the idiot that backs a truck, forklift or your mobile gantry into the posts causing an equal amount of damage. I know, I've done it. It's the old story.... You can't fix stupid with duct tape.
    A mate of mine (mechanic) was removing the engine from his father's Kenworth truck with the aid of a mobile engine gantry crane. Dad was working one side and the mate the other. No big deal, simple short lift and roll out through the removed bonnet opening. Dad had his foot in front of the gantry's rear wheel. Too busy watching for clearance to notice where his feet were. Got him right across the instep, missing the steel cap in his boot entirely. One very flat foot. So flat he lost it.
    Personally, I hate cranes. Particularly those long stalky things in the city. Just waiting to topple onto something expensive.
    I stand and gaze around the inside of my shed. What is the most solid thing in it's construction? The bloody gantry.

  11. #25
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    "...You can't fix stupid with duct tape...."
    ...hold my beer....
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    The other thing you could do if you unsure is get the shed with the 3.5m post spacing - then once you know where/what etc you will be doing in your shed you can always retrofit a couple HD posts and trusses.
    I love this idea. However I'll have to have a chat with the concrete guy. I expect it would require a change to the slab.
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beardy View Post
    Out of curiosity, when the shed company said the barn style will be cheaper is that for supply only or installed as well?
    There is more work installing a barn style over a typical portal frame style farm shed so would expect the erection costs to be more??
    The shed kit cost is a bit cheaper but the real driver is that the erection costs are supposed to be cheaper. I need build quotes to verify this.

    The shed kit cost is a bit cheaper even though the overall steel quantity might be more. Smaller gauge steel frame for everything. But I'm not sure it's a huge savings there. The saving we are trying to achieve is that to erect a series of 3.5m x 3.5m frames is so much easier and requires less heavy equipment than a wide span shed with 10m x 5m frames. Whole different level.
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    Take a step back, have a cup of tea, and start again. Adding complexity (changing roof style halfway down) is unlikely to reduce costs. Also, the front "trailer storage" section is not where the posts will trouble you - you can store a trailer (or a lawn mower) in a shed that's only a few cm wider than the item to be stored. It's the WORKING bit of the shed that needs to be wide.
    Trailer, lawn mower etc, will go there until one day I might have the budget to take on a classic car or a caravan project. Then the trailer, lawn mower can sit in the rain. ....oh errrr. I mean then I'll fine somewhere else for them. It's the same space but it's about 60m2.


    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    As for those posts, it entirely depends on the complete design of the shed and your intended usage of it. If your taste in woodwork is pen turning, then you have no problems, but if you're making church pews or boardroom tables, then it might be an issue. Equally if your car of choice is an old Mini or a Suzuki Sierra (both great choices, by the way!) then 3.5m post spacing's won't be an issue if your center bay is at least a good "single garage" width (perhaps 4m minimum). You might not quite be able to spin the Sierra on dollies (it would be tight!), but you'll be OK. However, if you dream of owning a 1960's Cadillac....... need I say more? Caravans and campervans also cover an enormous size range! Tiny teardrop caravan behind an old MG, or 33' Airstream behind that damn Cadillac!
    I am interested in 1960s Cadillacs plus an F-series Truck and the largest caravan or motorhome I could afford to build. I'd love one of those 14' hybrids but dear wife ain't going camping without the Taj Mahal and our 2 dogs. Don't have the budget for anything now, but just thinking about the next 30 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    Remember the design of the whole setup is important. A long apron on the front of the shed will allow you to spin a car that is too long to spin in the shed, but you need a grated drain and no step from shed to apron otherwise those dollies will get stuck! Equally, such a setup allows you to wheel out your drop saw or table saw (assuming you haven't built them in to benches) and break down large pieces of timber outside.
    I have a scheme to get a small side apron to wheel woodwork outside. This involves me building a triangular carport between the shed and the house. I may have accidently forgotten to mention this structure against the new house, to dear wife. Pretty sure she is busy selecting floor tiles or something, so best not trouble her about it now. Pick your battles I say.

    For the front with the 3 rollers doors - if I go American Barn - this is a big problem. I can have a carport, but it would be 3.5m spacing in the car port. That would be more annoying than in the shed.
    The other issue I have with a front apron is that it would be a slab of concrete soaking up the afternoon sun and creating a steady flow of super heated air to drift into the sauna we call a shed. My worst nightmare. So I was thinking I would make a front apron of those grass block pavers. The one with concrete blocks you can park on that have grass grow through them. Fine for parking. Not much good for dollies. But much less thermal mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    Do you NEED a super-sized shed?
    What sort of question is that? Pretty sure that is heresy or blasphemy or treason or something. Isn't there some sort of law against such wrong think? I mean maaaaate!!!!! Don't be so reckless!! Imagine if dear wife saw that question!! Sheesh! Let's just pretend that was never written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warb View Post
    Internal walls to separate woodwork from car painting are worthwhile because of contamination issues, and make sharing those spaces difficult, but mechanical work can co-exist with woodworking machinery on wheels. It would be great to have totally dedicated spaces with everything built in, but that's hard when you have multiple hobbies and limited cash and space. Perhaps a slightly smaller wide-span shed would be a better bet? My best advice is not to buy anything that you have doubts about. You will ALWAYS find issues/challenges with whatever you end up with, but you will beat yourself up about it far more if you knew about them in advance but did it anyway because "I must have it". Or maybe that's just me again!!

    Last thoughts. What about reducing the length of the shed, but continuing the roofline at the front as a "carport", the walls of which can be filled in later (and the doors relocated to the front!). Or something like a double garage with a skillion roof on the side, that again can be walled in later to form another room? My own experience is that the slab makes up a large part of the cost, and the "roof" is the bit that raises concern for DIY builds. So a large slab with a hayshed/machinery shed roof (no walls at all) gets the big expense and scary bit done, and then the walls can be put in DIY at your leisure. That's what I did with my garage/mancave/toyroom, and it also meant I could have weatherboard walls to match my house.....
    Yep the plan is for me to DIY internal walls when I can afford the materials.
    My YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/2_KPRN6I9SE

  15. #29
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    Large portal frames are a PITA. Slow to errect and require extra man power. I built my shed on my own. It cost me nothing for the shed, just the slab, the RSJ and the two end posts. The shed kit was a complete botch from the supplier who then did the right thing and supplied me another kit and left me the original as they were of the opinion it ws not cost effective to collect. I couldn't believe my luck. So I ended up with two sheds to errect. One correctly precut and readyfor errection and the other basically a pack of raw material awaiting a new design. So, that's what I did, came up with a new design to suit the available lengths. The American barn was born. The original design incorporated portal frames, which meant I would need extra labour for errection. This is when I decided to run a main ridge with end posts only and throw the rafters up individually each side and attach the heel end to the already standing post. A simple, one man operation. The beam posts were done the same way - stood and bolted to the footing ready for the beam. When the beam was delivered to site the truck, of course, had a highab to unload it. Instead of dumping it on the ground we lifted it straight up into position and I bolted it to the flanges on the tops of the posts. Crane cost? Zero. End of day one - Main ridge and posts standing and all perimeter posts upright, ready for rafters.
    End of day two - Rafter brackets welded to top of RSJ, rafters attached to brackets on beam with single bolt, heel of rafter raised and attached to post bracket and bolted off. Tophat roof battens screwed down. Main roof frame complete.
    End of day three - Skillion rafters attached to internal post with single bolt, heel of rafter raised to external post bracket and bolted off. Tophat roof battens screwed down. Fascia purlins attached. Braces run.
    End of day four - Wall girts in position, braces run and sheeting underway.
    End of day five - Wall sheeting complete.
    End of day six - Roof insulation and sheeting complete (today was a 2man day as a mate came and helped me with the roofing.)
    Bottom line? A one man week and you have a shed. Nothing heavy to lift by hand and the cost of the beam and heavy duty posts offset by the labour save.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    The shed kit cost is a bit cheaper but the real driver is that the erection costs are supposed to be cheaper. I need build quotes to verify this.

    The shed kit cost is a bit cheaper even though the overall steel quantity might be more. Smaller gauge steel frame for everything. But I'm not sure it's a huge savings there. The saving we are trying to achieve is that to erect a series of 3.5m x 3.5m frames is so much easier and requires less heavy equipment than a wide span shed with 10m x 5m frames. Whole different level.
    I have done a few but not the American barn style. I think you will find a scissor lift will do the job of frame erection and cladding on both styles regardless of size for the prefab units.

    I would be checking some erection prices to see what the actual difference is going to be between the two shed styles. I am guessing that the overall cost difference is not going to be that much between them and then your decision can come down to what style suits you best

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