Thread: Dave's Large Shed

P.S. I have found White Satin 12mm "Moisture Resistant" white melamine MDF. 2400 x 1200 sheets at my local sheet good supplier. It is 26kg a sheet which sounds manageable.
The question is how long will this last in SE QLD humid environment?

I would paint all the ends with some sort of sealant.

I suppose as long as I screw it to the frame, then even if it is no good after 10 years, it can be easily replaced. I just know that once it goes up in the shed, I'm not going to be prepared to replace it for more like 20 years. So I'm not 100% sure about it. Anyone got any experience with this?

P.P.S. I just realised that the framing is not as expensive as I thought it was if I use 70 x 35 framing timber and buy long lengths. So ignore that question.

Regarding your roofing and height fears. There are cases here where the roof of a house is built on the ground and a crane brought in to lift it up and on to the walls. It allows the crew to do the work without having to get everything up to work with and in frosty weather it is a lot safer. I know some of your shed construction is done with frames that include roof structure so that wouldn't work but if there is a way to make and put up all the walls and then top with a roof you built on the ground you'd only need to hire a guy to go up and disconnect the rigging and maybe close off the roof with the end sheets.
Look into the idea and see if it can be done in your case.

Pete

Dave, in my experience, get the shed built by shed builders is the best thing. They'll have it habitable in short order, time is money and off to the next job.

I have white melamine (3/4") lining my walls.

Enjoy the ride!

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Regarding your roofing and height fears. There are cases here where the roof of a house is built on the ground and a crane brought in to lift it up and on to the walls. ...
Pete

Thanks for the lateral thinking. These steel sheds are sheet on a single frame. The sheeting is part of the structure. There is no separate frame for the walls. They just bolt together a series parts to make arches for the frame. There is no ceiling cavity. There is one frame for walls and roof and then they screw sheet metal to it.
Remember we have no snow load to worry about. So probably in Canada these things are much more substantial than here.

Originally Posted by Pat

Dave, in my experience, get the shed built by shed builders is the best thing. They'll have it habitable in short order, time is money and off to the next job.

I have white melamine (3/4") lining my walls.

Enjoy the ride!

I don't doubt that for one second. The problem is that one third of the cost is the install. It's roughly one third for the kit. One third for the concrete and one third for the install. Which would be OK except I've then got no budget for other extras - like electricity.

One installer pointed out that for the height I asked for, the install was costly. They need a crane etc. Another pointed out that part of the reason I need to pay extra council fees is due to the height I've requested. I'm going to redesign my openings and get everything re-quoted with a shorter height. This might make a difference to the install costs. Plus dear wife was not happy about the height.

Please tell me more about your melamine.
Photos PLEASE!!!!!!! Is it standard melamine on particle board or moisture resistant MDF?
How long have you had it installed? How is it holding up? It sounds like you are on the coast so is it humid in your world?
Why did you use 18mm? That seems overkill and it is very heavy. Or is it much more practical to screw things to? I was thinking 12mm (although sometimes 15/16mm is actually cheaper so I might go with that).
Did you seal all the edges? What with?
Since you used 18mm, did you bother to insulate the walls behind it? 18mm melamine could have a fair bit of insulating properties by itself I imagine. Although I'd still prefer to insulate against sound anyway.

What stud spacing did you use to screw it to?

Do you get snow blindness from all the white? Hahaha. I mean it is too much? I'm thinking it will be fine by the time I screw everything under the sun onto it. Which also will help to reduce sound bouncing straight off it. Or is that not really how it goes in practice - do you end up with a lot of flat wall space?
I'm hoping all that white is a good thing. Keeps everything well lit. but I realise it's not for everyone.

Sorry for all the questions.
Tell me it is wonderful and the best choice for lining. Because that is what I want to hear.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

I would build the shed kit myself, except that I am scared of heights. If I could find a way to do most of the shed kit without having to walk on the roof them that would be the way to go!!! Any ideas?

I would find a reputable shed company, and have a colorbond shed built to the dimensions and specifications (doors, roller doors, windows) that you want. This will take care of all engineering and safety aspects, which may be something you might not achieve completely building it yourself. Consider also that you want this as part of your home and contents insurance, and telling an insurance company that you have a 10m x 25m self designed and built shed (no matter how well YOU do it) will ring alarm bells. If it's done professionally, it removes all the potential "worry" from the insurer.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

4. Is the typical bubble wrap foil insulation steel shed insulation good enough? Should I consider something more insulating on the roof/ceiling?

It's "good enough" as a sarking material - with it installed properly in a colorbond shed on the ceiling AND the walls, you will eliminate condensation from the walls, and the ceiling dripping on the floor overnight. Whilst it has very mild insulation properties (R0.5 I believe), it is NOT sufficient as a thermal insulation even here in the Hunter Valley.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

Once I have shuffled around in my empty building for a year or two - wondering why I wasn't more reasonable - I am thinking of putting acoustic insulation batts on the walls and lining the walls. Probably with ply wood. (cue discussion on what to line your steel shed with). The batts are to insulate the walls but also to reduce the level of annoyance I will cause everyone else. The lining is to screw whatever I want wherever I want including electrical conduit.

I agree. We have a far smaller shed than you are planning, but wanted the same - power, insulation, something to screw stuff to the walls with etc. The way we're doing ours (it's a work in progress) is being detailed here: Midnight's Shed Effectively, we're building frames, standing them up in between the structural metal beams of the shed, filling them with 90mm Bradford Soundscreen, and lining it with plywood. IMO it's important to leave an air gap between the sarking and your ultimate lining, this air gap will assist in insulating, and allow any remaining condensation to dry out with air flow.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

I am thinking of paint on epoxy floor. Whadda ya reckon? It's a fair bit of cost for the kits for a floor that big. I sorta need to decide that before stuff starts appearing inside. Like it always magically does.

Having seen ours done, and the minor - but problematic issues the installers came up against, and the myriad of tiny things that can go wrong that the average person wouldn't even realise, I would never do this myself (especially if you're after a flake finish - the retail kits include about 300g of flake, where the installers will typiclly use at least 10 times that amount for a proper looking finish). If you put it down and goof it up, it's heck-on-wheels to fix - in fact, our installers goofed and put a second coat of Poly down a day too early, and when the first coat underneath dried, it crackled the entire top. They're coming back next week to grind the whole floor (4 coats of colour, 2 coats of Poly) off and start from scratch.

Some other random points/thoughts that we figured out along the way:

- Whilst the shed is being built is the time to install your "bubble type" shed insulation. it's not costly to do at that point.
- Whilst building the shed, insist on vermin strips at the bottom. It's cheap, and saves a lot of stuff living in your wall space, especially if you line it later
- Consider throwing solar panels on the roof of the house and/or shed, and install air conditioners to the various non-garage spaces (see last posts in our build)

There's probably a bunch more that I can't think of right now, but I'm keen to see this get built, it certainly looks to be awesome!

You make a good point about the insurance. (If they ask). But also as I think about this some more, if I have a 10m span, then how do I think I am going to build that myself? I'm not being realistic. I need it done for me.

Thank you for the explanation about the bubble foil insulation. Sounds much like I suspected.

Are vermin strips the way to go, or just fiberglass the gap?

Is 90mm required for the acoustic batts? I was thinking of 70mm framing to reduce costs. I do take your point about the value of an air gap for moisture and insulation. It probably also helps to further deaden sound. The costs just keep going up!

Are you putting the acoustic batts in the ceiling or just the walls?

I can't afford to have professionals put the epoxy floor in. I'll have to have a go and hope for the best. You've got be worried. Wish me luck!

I want solar panels. I haven't got into this just yet but there are zero deposit options for this at the moment. Or maybe I just add that to the to do list down the road. Do I need to specify anything about the roof of the shed to accommodate these panels?

Question 11. Does anyone know if a row of 2 - 3m shrubs 4m from the shed will reduce noise to the neighbors?
Obviously not a great barrier, but does it help a little bit?

What about a 1.5m wall or fence? I suppose I could put up a 1.8m wooden fence if it will make a difference.

I am thinking that might be an additional and final hurdle for noise and improve the aesthetics for the neighbours. It might be particularly important where the roller doors are up. (Which would be most of the time).

Tin sheds are nightmare when it comes to heat, cold and condensation, my B in L has a shed at least as big as what you are planning and he has all those problems. Heat load can be mitigated by shading, stop the sun hitting it directly and the heat load is lessened by a lot. Shade cloth can do this and is most probably the easiest and most effective way, trees do it but you don't like heights and the roof would need regular cleaning to keep the gutters clean. The only issue I see with shade cloth is it does not look the best and hanging it from something can be a challenge.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Tin sheds are nightmare when it comes to heat, cold and condensation, my B in L has a shed at least as big as what you are planning and he has all those problems. Heat load can be mitigated by shading, stop the sun hitting it directly and the heat load is lessened by a lot. Shade cloth can do this and is most probably the easiest and most effective way, trees do it but you don't like heights and the roof would need regular cleaning to keep the gutters clean. The only issue I see with shade cloth is it does not look the best and hanging it from something can be a challenge.

Where is your B in L?

Yes I know first hand how much difference overhanging trees make. But as you noted, my problem with heights mean that they cause me way too many problems.
I am willing to have some 3m shrubs to throw a little relief from the afternoon sun. But they wont help much.

Personally I like your shade cloth idea. I hadn't thought of that. However I would never get it past dear wife. It would be a shade cloth over 4.5 high on top of the hill which makes it not practical anyway.
I had thought about making a roof over the roof. I forget the term for that. You leave a fairly big gap so that the top roof has significant air flow under it. It means the real roof is quite a few degrees cooler. This is done in some really hot places. But I can't afford it for such a large shed.

As far as the cold goes, I'm not worried. It never gets beyond cool here. I'll just have to do my hobbies with some clothes on during those months.

Condensation has never been a big issue for me here. Of course that might be because I only recently managed to get glass in all the windows! Which are old louvers anyway.

mmmmm perhaps condensation will be a issue. I don't know. I've never actually had a shed which was even close to being as well sealed as a cheap tent. However I am going to have roller doors and roof vents. It's never going to be sealed.

You are really making me reconsider my office plans. An open door on that wall would allow air to flow through the shed like a tunnel. It would also let all the dust flow into the office area. I need to think this layout through a bit more. I'm just imaging how much a tunnel wind effect that could make. It could make a massive difference with such an air flow.

Heat and Humidity though!! OMG!! I've had drier times in the shower than our average summer.
If I won lotto I'd aircon the whole lot in a heartbeat.

So the insulation is to keep heat out and to dampen noise. The noise is not just for the neighbours but also for dear wife in the house.

Re your painting the floor with epoxy.
I have a big old shed with a conc floor.
I put up with the dust problems from this for about 30 years.
Finally painted the floor with flooring paint.
Bought it from a guy in Sydney who gets dented cans from the manufacturer.
It was good quality and very cheap.
I used turps based green and water based brown as that’s what he had available at the time.
My 40’ x 60’ floor is in six sections so half are green, half are brown no ones ever commented so it looks ok.
I’ve used leftover epoxy glue to gradually fill the expansion gaps so the lifting gear moves easier.
It appears to be holding up well even the hydraulic oil spills from my lifting gear clean off ok
It cost about a hundred or so from memory and I have left over in the cans to touch up if needed.
H.

How long have you had it painted for?
Was it epoxy flooring paint or was it 2 part epoxy resin that can be painted on? They are not the same thing. There is also polyurea coating. I don't know much about all these but I gather epoxy resin slowly breakdown in UV light. The best I have had is normal oil based flooring paint. Which is definitely better than 'raw' concrete. I am told that epoxy resin coating is significantly better again but I can't speak from experience.
40' x 60' - so that is about 12m x 18m??? pretty similar square meterage to what I have in mind. I think 12m span would be ideal. Much more useful in a number of ways but any more than 10m cuts into other uses of the land we have.

Originally Posted by DaveVman

Are vermin strips the way to go, or just fiberglass the gap?

IMO only - do not completely seal this gap. You will want a way for any condensation and/or water to be able to get out, and *most* bugs to not get in.

It's a compromise, yes. But water trapped in a wall...

And one other BIG thing I forgot in my post above... if building from scratch, make the side walls 3m tall... we have 2.4m (I inherited the shed when we bought the property), I wish they were 3m.