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Thread: Midnight's Shed

  1. #16
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    The secret to 'Beefing Up' the capacity of the Tophat sections, is the cutting of the 90x45 (or 90x35) to a tight fit between the Portal Frames. Effectively putting these members into compression and the metal Tophat into tension.
    By using blocks as you suggest, that will still work, however, you will have to countersink the Tek screws to allow for the Framing Timber below the Tophat to be solidly attached at these points. Then run Timber Ceiling battens across at 450 or 600 cts to carry the ceiling.

    For those interested, the width of Topspan 61, 102.5mm over the width of the bottom flanges.
    Over the width of the contact flange 95mm. Contact flanges 14mm. Inside width of contact flanges 67mm.
    Width of Top Contact 36.5mm. Overall height 61mm. Metal Thickness, 0.75mm & 1.0mm are the most common.

    Both Lysaght and Stramit have good downloadable info on their websites.

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  3. #17
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    Howdy Midnight Man, thanks for documenting your process, it's very helpful to others. About to embark on something very similar, and I had the same idea for hinged doors to block in the (little used) roller door.

    Did you end up doing this, and did you encounter any great difficulties with this aspect?

    Cheers,

    Neil

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil T View Post
    Did you end up doing this, and did you encounter any great difficulties with this aspect?
    Hi Neil,

    This build is still "in progress" - real life has delayed it a bit. The last thing we have to do in terms of framing and design is actually that section of the wall (all other wall sections are done).

    Happy to come back to this and document what we did, but it'll take a couple of weeks yet.

  5. #19
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    Well, this build stalled for quite a while - life got busy, Christmas came and went, and with it, heat and distractions aplenty.

    With all of those out of the way, the build has started again where we left off. The plan was always to install these frames slightly proud of the outside colourbond, sarking and purlins to allow a thermal break, but that meant that we had in put some kind of backing on these frame walls to prevent insulation from flopping out into the void.

    Our plan included installing some lengths of builders strapping to take that "load" (such that it is), and then tack on some Proctorwrap to protect the insulation and wall from any moisture that might come into play.

    Here's a couple of the frame walls taken back down with their new builders strapping installed - we've 2 of the 10 sections done, but have yet to put the Proctorwrap in place (the void you see without strapping is a doorway that will allow access to the workshop when all is built):

    Frame backings.jpg

  6. #20
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    HI MM, looking good and glad you have found time to get back onto this. I am in the middle of the exact same process down here in Victoria and elected to put another layer of sarking on the back of my frames, with the reflective side facing inwards. So two layers total, each layer facing the opposite direction. Plenty of ways to skin a cat.

    Best wishes.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil T View Post
    HI MM, looking good and glad you have found time to get back onto this. I am in the middle of the exact same process down here in Victoria and elected to put another layer of sarking on the back of my frames, with the reflective side facing inwards. So two layers total, each layer facing the opposite direction. Plenty of ways to skin a cat.

    Best wishes.
    And best wishes to you too Neil - hope your fitout progresses quicker than this one!

    Your plan is exactly my thinking too - we have Insulshed 50 on the inside of the Colorbond walls - it is there as a condensation barrier (a.k.a. sarking), and plan on putting the same on the back side of these frames - it'll effectively create an air pocket lined on each side with a moisture barrier/sarking. The natural gap - even though small (we installed vermin shield at the bottom of the Colorbond) will provide a small amount of air flow to deal with any moisture that might build up in that gap.

    We also figure that gap will provide a thermal break between the frame wall and the outside wall. The frame walls are using 90x45 treated pine, and will be filled with Bradford Soundscreen, providing accoustic control to a degree, and R2.5 insulation.

  8. #22
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    We made some more progress this weekend, and the final "shape" of things is starting to show.

    After installing the metal strapping to take the load/weight of the bulk insulation, the back of each frame is lined with Proctorwrap which allows moisture to breathe out of the wall structure, but doesn't let moisture in. (This section needs the ends trimmed, in case you're wondering):

    Backing attached.jpg

    This then is stood back up in place (this is a different wall section, in case it's confusing), and it's then ready to have electrical cables run, and bulk insulation added:

    Wall standing.jpg

    There'll be a few weeks of this, assuming we're only working weekends, before we get to the insulation and electrics.

    More to follow soon!

  9. #23
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    Great seeing your progress Midnight! I'm taking notes 👍

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan87 View Post
    Great seeing your progress Midnight! I'm taking notes ��
    Awesome, but be assured, I'm only figuring things out as I go along, and doing what makes sense to me - I'm no expert in this sort of thing!

    Planning on some more of the same (backing on framing) over the Easter break

  11. #25
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    Related question - how did you do your walls Midnight?

    I'm about to add some sealing/insulation to my shed walls (roof later). Shed is steel frame, with wooden horizontals at ~50 ~1200 ~2400, so I was planning to just cut Foilboard to ~1200 between the horizontals (with a bit of a spacer to create air gap), then screw 12 or 18mm ply to the wood. Am thinking I need some verticals, at least at the edges of the sheets (1200), but is even that enough? Will be hanging french cleats on it all.

    (PS: plywood would sit on top of a strip of H3 90x35, just to keep the ply off the ground (moisture) and spray-foam in behind to improve the bottom edge seal).

    Thoughts/suggestions?
    Image from iOS.jpg

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyricnz View Post
    Related question - how did you do your walls Midnight?
    Some photos on page 1 of this thread might give you a better idea - the shed we have here uses 65x150mm structural steel beams - these form a frame of two sides, and the two angled roof sections at each end of the shed, and two more of these assemblies at 1/3rd, and 2/3rd of the way through the shed. You can see part of one of the end ones in the second photo I posted a couple days ago.

    Given the size of these, we decided to build 90x45 frame sections to sit in between these, and then separately stand them up between these main structural sections. You will see in the coming couple of weeks that we'll be using carriage bolts to blot these sections together having drilled a small hole through the ends of each frame section and also through these structural beams (i.e. all this will become clearer soon when we get to it and can post some pictures).

    Because of that approach, all the wall sections will end up helping to support the one next to them, and be anchored to the shed structure.

    We will also be bolting each section to the concrete floor.

    Bulk insulation will then be installed, and the whole thing lined with 18mm ply. That plywood will be anchored to the frame with these: 14g x 50mm Bugle Batten Screws ZINC box of 250

    On top of that structure, I'm going to be putting up a couple of French cleat tool walls.

    The way we're doing the ceiling has actually now become clear to me, but it's hard to describe in text, but we'll be doing some prep work for that soon, and I'll post photos as soon as I can. I'm planning on a good 170mm ceiling void in which to run all the electrical cables, and it will also leave enough space to install 150mm ducting for dust extraction.

    Looking at your shed, it appears from the photo you've posted that you don't seem to have the advantage of the type of internal structure we do. I think in that situation, and depending on time, budget and desired outcomes, I'd start thinking about building a room within the room, if that makes any sense? Something in the back of my mind tells me Matt Estlea (search on YouTube) did something similar, and that might give you some inspiration. Take careful note of condensation issues, and plan accordingly - these will vary depending on your location, so it's important to note if condensation is an issue currently (we're coming up to winter, you'll find out soon enough!). If it is an issue, deal with it first, then consider how to work that solution in with other outcomes you want to achieve.

    I would venture only my *opinion* that trying to hang plywood from your existing structure, and then installing French cleat on that and hanging tools (and potentially a decent bit of weight in those items) may not result in a good outcome. That's not an attempt to knock your idea, but given the photo I can see, I don't think there's enough structure in there to hold a lot of weight over a long period of time.

    And feel free to ask questions, there are a whole bunch of awesome people on these forums, happy and willing to share experience, knowledge and ideas!

  13. #27
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    Thanks for the hint/feeling I am hoping that by resting the ply directly on the strip of H3 90x35 that will bear most of the weight, and the walls/beams will only need to handle the "tip" force? Maybe I could bolt something to/across the steel frames? They're about 2m apart on the sides of the shed, and there's one in the middle (3m) on the back. Maybe a wood or steel beam across the top?

    Condensation/moisture is actually my #1 driver, followed by pests. I've never had too much of an issue with temperature - as a hobbyist, if it's too hot/cold, I go do something else. But wind and rain blowing into the shed and getting on my jobs/equipment is a pain!

    This is not my forever shed, it's just for a couple of years until I build that . (assuming I get a new job, damn #coronovirus) So building a frame within a the steel skeleton sounds like more cost/time than I'm ready for.

    I've got sooooo many questions and issues about workshop stuff, but I don't want to hijack your thread!

  14. #28
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    With some spare time over the Easter break, we came close to getting the framing preparation half way completed around the perimeter of the shed:

    Half workshop done.jpg

    The four sections you see here represent half the workshop space, some of the space that you can't see from this photo (it's effectively behind the place from where this photo was taken) is going to be dedicated to a home office.

    More to come over the next couple of weeks

  15. #29
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    We made some more - but slow - progress in the past couple of weeks. Getting a framing section that *just* fits in between the main structural beams of a pre-built shed means pretty accurate measurements and framing needs to be done, and then it all needs to get the backing installed, because there's simply too much gap in between the back of the frame and the actual wall of the Colourbond shed. The next section we had to do included incoming electrics, hot water, cold water, gas, and waste water drain. This gave us a chance to slow down a bit, and take some photos of how we do it.

    First, the frame is taken down, and we get 0.6mm builders strap, and fix it to the base of the frame:

    Fitting Strapping.jpg

    That is crimped over at the bottom to prevent sharp edges damaging the builders wrap.

    We then affix the

    Strapping top.jpg

    Because we want this strapping to hold up the bulk insulation that will be installed in the cavity, we want to make sure that these straps don't bow out at the back - and given that we can only tighten them so much by hand, we take two steps to get them nice and tight. First, we make a short bracket out of the scraps of left over strapping to hold the strap to the back of the noggin, but in such a way that is can slide a little left to right, and more importantly, up and down:

    Middle bracket.jpg

    Once we have that in place, we install a strap tensioner at the bottom of the strap, and tighten it to bring the whole length of strap taught:

    Tensioner.jpg

    This gives us a wall section, with studs at 600mm on centres, with two straps running in between each pair of studs, so strong support to hold up the bulk insulation at around 200mm spacings:

    Full strap.jpg

    From here, we simply put a layer of dampcourse and staple that to the bottom of the frame:

    Dampcourse.jpg

    Once that's done, the builders wrap is attached (and apologies, I haven't yet taken a photo of that), and the wall is then stood up in position:

    Installed wall.jpg

    Bottom right is where we have incoming hot & cold water, gas, and drainage - electrics are fairly obvious in the photo.

    We're now at the half way point on this exercise - next step after this will be to get the concrete floor levelled

  16. #30
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    Well, the "few weeks" in April got stretched out a bit - a few things got in the way.

    Nonetheless, perseverance has seen us get the whole process finished:

    Framing done overview.jpg

    As part of the final process, we got some nifty screws from one of the forum sponsors (scrooz.com.au) called Raptr screws, and with an SDS drill, went through the timber into the concrete to fasten the bases of the walls in place:

    Raptr Screws.jpg

    From there, we went and put carriage bolts going through the timber sections and through the shed frame to hold the upper parts of the walls together and in place:

    Carriage bolts.jpg

    Of course, there is a void in the "C" channel used to frame the shed - and what we did there was to rip down a length of framing timber and fasten it into the "C" channel to fill that void, and provide a "smooth" surface on the "empty" side for the framing to butt up to:

    Filled in C Channel.jpg

    The final step was to take the extra dampcourse poking out from under the framing and push it up vertically and staple it to the outside of the framing:

    Dampcourse stapled.jpg

    And with all that done, it's now time to wait - we have a chap coming to pour what looks to be about 55 bags of levelling cement to get the floor level, and after that, it's back to us to frame up the dividing wall between what will be the home office and the workshop.

    EDIT: Awesome timing, the floor is being levelled tomorrow More updates soon!

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