Thread: Midnight's Shed
23rd Apr 2019, 07:54 PM #1
I thought I might post up this now, even though I expect this process and fit out will take some time, but I want to do this as a WIP, both to document the steps, and hopefully, with your feedback, help some others who might be planning or thinking about the same journey.
We moved into this place a couple years ago, and after having done a lot of the basic stuff you do when moving into a new place, it's taken a couple of years to set aside some coin ready to begin fitting out the shed in the rear of the place to become a workshop on one side, and home office on the other.
It's essentially a 3 bay garage (10m x 7m), and it used to have 2 roller doors and a normal door, but that's been reconfigured now to suit the new purposes it'll be put to.
The glass sliding door now leads to what will be the first 1/3rd of the shed, which will become the home office. The roller door is about where the workshop begins internally, and will now serve as an extended area for table saw or other out/in feed as required, and behind the back of the shed is a normal door for access into what will become the workshop:
Whilst we were in the prep stage for getting the actual shed reconfigured, we had the electrician run in a decent power supply from the main house switchboard, and the plumbers ran in hot & cold water (you can see their feeds in the photo above, which was taken after they filled in their trench), and we decided while they were at it, and given it was close to hand, they may as well run in town gas too. They're all roughed in to a couple of corners at this stage, all awaiting further work.
Inside, the shed had some insulation (sarking, with air cells behind it) on the roof, but the walls were just colourbond and metal framing. We had that redone whilst the shed was being reconfigured to include a little insulation, and it doubles as a condensation barrier. The sparkies feed is also shown in the next photo (and before anyone thinks I've ignored good Blackbutt, and stacked it wrong, that was temporary, and it's now in the wood store (a different, smaller shed) and properly stickered):
So, the idea now is to build internal timber stud frame walls to hold both insulation (Bradford Soundscreen to assist in minimising noise for neighbours) and which can then be clad and painted etc to provide internal walls. We began that process over the Easter break, and found we had a lot of work to do in cutting timber to allow for the various bolts and protrusions that sit proud of the metal framework in places:
Two Walls Framed.jpg
These frames are temporarily sitting in place - they will be taken back down at a later date to have a building wrap put on them to both provide a moisture barrier, and to hold in the insulation in the walls. They're being stood in place to keep them out of the way, and to allow the plumbers and electricians to rough in their spots to run cables and water/gas etc.
Over the coming weeks, we're hoping to continue and finish the framing, and then begin with insulation/and internal wall lining. Progress is likely to be slow, but hopefully steady!
24th Apr 2019, 09:37 AM #2Novice
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
I have used 110 mm Soundscreen in my workshop walls and it works really really well for the neighbors Doesn't do much for me inside the workshop as I still have to use ear plugs.
24th Apr 2019, 09:51 AM #3
Nothing better than having a cleared shed to get this work done. Looks like you are heading in the right direction.Now proudly sponsored by Binford Tools. Be sure to check out the Binford 6100 - available now at any good tool retailer.
24th Apr 2019, 03:30 PM #4Novice
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
I did some sound measurements for you on my workshop, which is only small at 23m2. Got out my old Realistic sound level meter, set it to C Weighting and Fast Response for the following readings:
- Roller Door Open no machinery running at 1 meter from outside roller door - 52-54db
- Roller Door Open DC, saw and jointer all running at 1 meter from outside roller door - 84-86db
- Roller Door Closed DC, saw and jointer all running at 1 meter from outside roller door - 78db
- Roller Door Closed DC, saw and jointer all running at 1 meter from anywhere outside the structure (walls) other than the roller doors- 72-74db
- Standing in the middle of the workshop with DC, saw and jointer all running - 92db
Hope that helps with your choice of soundscreen. I have it in the walls and roof, air cells under the roof sheeting as anticon.
24th Apr 2019, 04:50 PM #5Senior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
My problem with noise is the small gaps at the top of the shed cladding where it meets the corrugated roof and the side angle roof ridges. Always get gaps that are hard to fill without taking off flashing or undoing the first 2 rows of roofing screws to jam foam/rubber
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24th Apr 2019, 04:52 PM #6.
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
When you say running, is that actually while making sawdust?
24th Apr 2019, 07:57 PM #7Novice
- Join Date
- Aug 2018
24th Apr 2019, 08:43 PM #8.
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
A more realistic/typical test would be to sample just the DC and one machine making sawdust.
A 1m location is appropriate for outside shed measurements or for machines that don't have an operator but when there is an operator the SPL meter should ideally be close to the operators ear with the operator standing at the operating position of the machine.
It's also better to report dBA weightings as this is what OHS limits are usually set by
Here is what I typically get (dBA) inside my shed.
Meter is at about operators ear and with the DC outside.
DC on and set up for TS: 71 (the air rushing noise is quite significant)
DC + TS on: 85
DC + TS on cutting 18 mm MDF: 91
Noise levels inside a shed are dependent on the amount of stuff you have inside the shed as the more stuff you have the more this scatters ands absorbs sound to some extent. As my shed floor, walls and roof space are chokka short of adding something like carpet and acoustic tiles it's not going to get much better than this.
24th Apr 2019, 11:45 PM #9
Many thanks to all for the feedback and information, particular thanks for the sound level readings with the SoundScreen
The plan in this build allows for 88mm SoundScreen around the walls, so I am probably going to get somewhat lesser sound reduction than the results Mr Slow has posted.
The layout I envisage at this stage will see little need to open the roller door, and inside of the roller door will be two doors made of the same structure as the walls, but hinged so they can swing open to the outside on the occasion really long material needs to be handled.
So I am hopeful I might get somewhat close to the 72-74dB found by Mr Slow - I would be really happy with something in the mid 70's, as it will reduce most of the annoyance for the neighbours when activities are under way.
I hadn't thought about using the SoundScreen in the roof - my design here (which I will elaborate on later) was to use foilboard, as I can place it between the purlins and it will hold in place. If I can find a way to hold SoundScreen in place on a 10 degree pitch from underneath, I may be able to use it there too - but I also need to be careful as the lighting requires many LED drivers to go in the roof void, and there's not a lot of room left.
Many thanks again for the thoughts and discussion - please keep it coming, as it's truly appreciated and very valuable! Back to more framing tomorrow - though Sir Stinkalot, I must confess, you've seen the photos of the cleared (working) side of the shed... the bandsaw, table saw, planer/thicknesser, tool carts and much other "stuff" has been rolled away into one corner to allow room to work. It's why we have to stand each wall section up as it's built, we'd run out of room otherwise!
25th Apr 2019, 05:37 PM #10
More progress today, though not as much as we'd hoped.
Turns out having to custom build a frame to exact size, and notch out stuff for bolt holes in the side (these can be seen when looking closely at the right hand side of the frame), and make a frame for the window all at the same time takes a lot longer than we estimated!
We got as far as this:
Essentially, it's done, but we still need to put in the top and bottom rails to support the window reveals - we just ran out of energy, and were going to lose the light after a bit anyway.
To amuse Sir Stinkalot, this is the "other" corner of the shed (the table saw is parked off to the left). Thankfully everything is on wheels, so it'll all be easy to move to yet another corner when the time comes:
Stuff in the corner.jpg
In the middle of the room we have a temporary workbench I made some time ago from two sheets of plywood and a sheet of MDF, on which we've set up the mitre saw and various tools we're using to cut and prepare framing:
I'm beginning to think now of how to attach the plywood sheets on the walls - they've been framed up at 600mm on centre intentionally to support a 1200x2400 sheet standing in "portrait" style, and my thinking was to get a button head screw, and affix both sides, top and bottom, and down the middle with a 38mm button head screw. My idea here was that a button head will be far less likely to tear out in case heavy items are hung on the walls, or French Cleat hanging on the walls etc.
I think it'll be strong enough, but I'm wondering if there might be a better, perhaps visually more appealing/less blatant way?
14th Jul 2019, 03:05 PM #11
It's been a while since last update, mainly because we've just been carrying on with more framing (there are several other wall sections that are now done), and dealing with a myriad of real life interruptions. I could show more photos, but they're all the same as the ones above!
With that coming to a close relatively soon, though, my thinking is being drawn toward the ceiling - I would like to line this so I can hang lighting in the right locations. The problem I'm having is finding out what sort of weight is acceptable to hang off the existing structure, and how best to go lining it.
I'd like to create a void in the ceiling space enough to install 110mm insulation.
The existing structure uses Lysaght TopHat 61 that can be seen in the photo below (never mind the peeling tape, it's been replaced):
These are 60mm high. What I was planning on doing was attaching 90mm blocks to the bottom of this TopHat material, and then screwing in plywood sheets to those blocks. Doing it this way would give a void space of 150mm (60mm from the top hat and 90mm from the block itself), enough for a 110mm insulation batt and a 40mm air space for a thermal break.
Because the existing lengths of TopHat are installed around 900mm apart, which seems to me to be too far apart for proper support of the plywood lining. I was thinking of installing 3 extra runs in between the existing runs to bring down that distance to around 450mm.
The blocks would be mounted underneath the TopHat around 400mm apart.
This means that the plywood will basically have an anchor point to a block behind it every 400-450mm. To make sure there's good support, I was thinking of using 1" (25.4mm) FastCap Wood Washers (https://www.fastcap.com/product/wood-washer) to give the screw a lot of surface area to grab with.
What thickness of plywood do I need to look at given the spacing of anchor points to prevent the ply from sagging over time? I'm certainly planning on painting it (white), and will do so from both sides to prevent any warping from that aspect, also to protect against damp. The ceiling structure itself already have a form of sarking, so condensation itself won't be an issue.
What sort of weight will a shed roof system be able to support in terms of ceiling lining? I'm no structural engineer, but we do have the structural documentation from the shed when it was built (before we bought the place, so we weren't involved in the planning) - I just have no idea how to read/understand them?
Many thanks for any input on this!
17th Jul 2019, 12:41 PM #12SENIOR MEMBER
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
I am currently undergoing a similar venture with my ceiling.
6mm fiber cement (hardieflex) can span 600mm between battens and 4.5mm @ 450mm between battens.
Hardieflex has a bending (or flexural strength) of >7MPa and a density of 1298km/m^3.
From the net plywood seems to have a bending strength around 8-10MPa and density of 500-900km/m^3.
So in theory it should span much better than fibro sheeting having greater bending strength and lower density (self weight). I would think use no more that 6mm to save $ and weight.
You will need to have a batten anywhere the sheets join to support the join. This will require installation of trimmers between the battens depending the the sheet size and orientation. Also remember to leave a 3mm or so gap for expansion of the plywood/movement of the frame.
As to making a cavity for insulation I would install more top hats on the bottom sides of the portal frame at 450 or 600 spacing depending on the thickness of the plywood, this way you would hide the portal frames and have continuous ceiling as well.
If you are worried about losing too much ceiling height maybe you could try get a 90mm steel batten and screw back to back to the existing top hats. You could possibly use Topspan 96 (slightly wider at the base?).
A for the portal frames handling the extra weight of the ceiling the company who supplied the kit should be able to give you an answer.
Hope this helps.
17th Jul 2019, 11:47 PM #13
Thank you for many good thoughts and ideas Jonsey850!
You've hit upon a number of crucial pieces of information I had no clue on, particularly the Hardiflex and Plywood specifications and span distances.
Thank you very much for this - it reinforces my ideas, and adds a number of things I failed to take into account (expansion gaps being one of them, but I think I have a neat way to achieve those).
I'll have a crack at drawing some of this up as soon as work gets to be less than 14 hours a day, and post up improved plans soon!
15th Aug 2019, 06:30 PM #14New Member
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Hi MM, I was looking at your shed.
The easiest way to get a surface suitable for lining is to 'Beef Up' the Top-hats.
This is done by cutting a length of framing timber (90x35 or 90x45) so it's a tight fit between the Portal frames.
Then Tek screw it to the top-hats. If you plug the ends of the top-hats with a squirt of expanding foam, this stops them becoming little mouse highways
This then will give you a strong fixing that will take any ceiling you like to hang from it.
Typically, timber battens so you can nail ply sheeting to them.
Use a nail gun with 65mm 'Ring-shank' nails to fix the battens.
Then nail the ply in place - call on a few mates plus hire a sheet lift -it's a bugger working overhead!
Hint, arise the edges of the ply a touch then any slight misalignments won't be as obvious.
As far as painting goes, I'd suggest just a couple of coats of varnish on the face you see and leave the natural timber look.
If you really want a painted finish, forget the ply and use gyprock. It's a lot cheaper and is made for the job.
19th Aug 2019, 07:06 PM #15
Thank you David for an incredibly detailed and helpful post!
Sorry I haven't been back in the past couple of days - work has been absolutely crazy.
I am pretty sure I'm across the methods you're suggesting for the ceiling - my concern to date has been the amount of weight this type fo structure would be hanging off the existing building, and whether it would all amount to too much (and cause issues/sag or collapse).
I gather by your post this shouldn't be an issue?
I do also note the bottom edges of the existing top hat is wider than 90mm, thus attaching framing material of that width won't work (the top hat is around 90mm on the inside - the lip makes it around 110mm.
My original plan (having realised the width of the top hat) was instead of putting a 90x45 along the length of the top hat, to instead cut 150mm lengths of it, and then screw these across the top hat from lip to lip on their edge (using a long M4 screw, washers and nut) to create 90mm "stand-offs", spaced around 400mm apart to attach sheets to. I wanted to do this on the blocks edge to create a 90mm gap to allow for insulation to be installed (the insulation is 110mm, but I have a 60mm top hat and then 90mm gap, so there would be an air gap to provide a thermal break too).
Perhaps I ought to modify this idea to use the tek screw idea, putting the 150mm blocks across the top hat, and using them to attach 90x45 battens also running across the direction of the top hat at 400mm distances to fasten sheeting onto?
It's all probably easier explained with a diagram, which I will try and do over the next few days and upload...
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