Wanted Petrobond info.-supplier

**Beerbotboffin** · 27th March 2007, 07:07 AM

Hi Impalabaz,

I posted the original reply that was referred to earlier.

I use petrobond, and source it through CMS right here in Brissy.

Petrobond (more correctly oil bonded sand - Petrobond is a brand name) is definately the go, especially for non-ferrous casting. It holds detail VERY well (though not as well as lost wax or investment castings), it's reasonably economical, doesn't dry out & gives a very good surface finish.

CMS sell it pre-mixed or as seperate components (binder catalyst etc), and it comes in a nice, resealable bucket with a decent handle (please note this is NOT an ad for CMS, just my experience!)

BUT WAIT! There is another option. As I said before, it is oil bonded sand. Another option is to make your own. There is a recipe available for a version called K-Bond, which was developed by Kent State University in the US
If anyone is interestefd, let me know - will post it here or you can just google it. Some of the componentscan be had cheaply through ebay.

Simso, the reason that you were getting spatering everywhere (luckily not an explosion) is too high a moisture content in your green sand - a problem which oil bonded sands do not have.

IMHO, milling parts from billet is fine if you have one or two, but casting really is the way to go. You can produce parts that require only minimal machining. And no, you don't need the original part to make a casting - you make what is called a pattern, and produce your parts from there. Piece of you know what.

Hope this helps,
Frosty

**impalabazz** · 27th March 2007, 08:06 AM

G'day Beerbotboffin,

Thanks for your input. Yes I have read both threads referring to Petrobond. Didn't know if I should contact you direct or not. This product as I'm sure you are well aware, is well known in the US and there are numerous reports on it from dedicated casting sites.

I haven't heard of K-Bond. I think I'll start with the Petrobond and get some experience with all things casting, ally mostly. I'm a raw beginner with no bad habits (yet) in this field. I've got heaps of work ahead, building the furnace, making tongs and other casting specific tools and equipment, sourcing crucibles etc. and making patterns etc.. I'm looking forward to it.

Cheers.........Barry.

**Beerbotboffin** · 27th March 2007, 10:03 AM

No worries Impalabazz. You are right in that the yanks (and the poms too) are into petrobond. There is quite a lot of useful stuff on the web in regards to casting.

I havn't yet tried K-bond, though plan to when the bathroom, entertainment room and a million other jobs are finished..... I have stocks of petrobond, but when that starts to deplete, I will start to experiment with K-bond.

Casting is lots of fun, and very rewarding (though I'm not sure about financially these days....) - possibly it is in niche markets.

Anyways, my advice would be to get a ceramic crucible (You will need a different crucible for each metal to avoid contamination), make some tols (tongs, skimmer, pouring ring & rammer), and build your own furnace & burner.

I would highly recommend building a waste oil burner, because whilst gas burners are quicker & easier, they are a LOT more expensive - my gas burner gets through 9kg in about 1.5-2hours at $20. Waste oil is, well, free. The other advantage of building a WVO burner is that they produce more heat, and are capable of melting metals such as cast iron.

If there is anything you'd like advice on, feel free to drop me a line.

Frosty

**simso** · 27th March 2007, 10:24 AM

Ahh a person after me own heart, Did a 28 roadster about 15 years ago, wow what an eye opener that was. Box the rails in, mount centura diff ect. Ive built modified restored a few vehicles since then, jag, celica, camaro's, firebirds, ect so I know where your coming from with the ability to cast objects. As I said above however the downside is you need an original or be able to make a mold of an original ect. Bridgeport mill very nice, I used these when I was in the military bloody big ridgid things. Currently Im finishing of another camaro, well slowly
Steve

**forge** · 27th March 2007, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Beerbotboffin

Hi Impalabaz,

There is a recipe available for a version called K-Bond, which was developed by Kent State University in the US
If anyone is interestefd, let me know - will post it here or you can just google it. Some of the componentscan be had cheaply through ebay.
Hope this helps,
Frosty

Hi,Frosty I'm interested what sort of recepie do you use for the k-bond?I seem to recall in the past i was not able to source one of the ingredients, and we ended up using green sand.
Regards,Bela

**Beerbotboffin** · 28th March 2007, 12:52 AM

Hey Forge,

As I said earlier, I havn't had a chance or the need to play with K-bond (as I still have good stocks of Petrobond). However, as soon as my new gas bottle based muller is completed, and my petrobond stock depletes, I will have a crack at it.

The recipe is:
100lb (45.5kg) fine sand (the finer the sand the better the finish)
6lb (2.7kg) of bentone clay (Bentone is actually a proprietry name, and is an amine reacted bentonite clay - bentonite being a natural clay)- possible sources include paint, glue & ink manufacurers. If this sounds tricky, find a manufacturer in your area, and make friends with someone who works there......
3lbs (1.36kg) of SYNTHETIC 2 stroke motorcycle oil - there are plenty of brands available locally.
0.2lbs (100g) of methanol - Really, really easy to come by - anywhere.

Cooking (err, mixing):
blend sand and bentone clay first, then blend in the oil thoroughly. After all is blended, add methanol until the mix becomes VERY sticky.
Apparently, the mix is best left for at least a day, and becomes much easier to work after a days rest.

NOTE
normal Petrobond ( and apparently all oil bonded sands) are VERY STICKY, and stain like all BUG^&*Y. They also smoke like Tommy Raudonikis on a bender.

Hope this helps.
Frosty (beerbotboffin)

**Schtoo** · 28th March 2007, 01:55 AM

Amine reacted bentonite?

Anyone out there in WWW land know a: What that is? and b: How do I make it from regular bentonite?

I have a large bag of bentonite, a hefty amount of fine sand, oil is cheap enough and methanol is on hand too. And I am not 100% happy using green sand with ally, even though I can make it work...

Wonder if regular bentonite would work ok?

Thanks for the recipe Beerbot.

**Beerbotboffin** · 28th March 2007, 08:05 AM

Hi Schtoo,

How's Japan?

I'm not sure where to get Bentone in Japan, but Bentone is just a trade name at the end of the day. There must be someone there who sells something similar.

Bentonite clay alone would not work. The clay would have had to have been reacted with an amine, otherwise no reaction will occur, and you'd just end up with a pile of funny sand.

Just for the record, amines are (in a nutshell) a nitrogen based compound, sort of kind of like ammonia.

Frosty

**forge** · 28th March 2007, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Amine reacted bentonite?

Anyone out there in WWW land know a: What that is? and b: How do I make it from regular bentonite?

I have a large bag of bentonite, a hefty amount of fine sand, oil is cheap enough and methanol is on hand too. And I am not 100% happy using green sand with ally, even though I can make it work...

Wonder if regular bentonite would work ok?

Thanks for the recipe Beerbot.

Schtoo-its been a while but here is a link that may help:http://www3.telus.net/public/aschoepp/sand.html
Here is some info on bentonite.http://www.elementis-specialties.com...sid=304&mid=16
As i understand it its used videly by a lot of different industrial processes ,paintmaking ,oil drilling,lubricants etc.
Hope this helps

**jmk89** · 28th March 2007, 11:00 AM

Chemical Recyclying seem to sell Bentone (as a cosmetic chemical) for $23.50 per kg.

**Big Shed** · 28th March 2007, 11:39 AM

Bentonite and Bentone are not the same thing.

Bentonite is a naturally occurring reactive clay, Bentone is derived from the same thing but treated with various chemicals. It is used in paints, adhesives, greases etc as a gelling agent and sag-control agent.

Read more about Bentonite here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

**impalabazz** · 28th March 2007, 01:20 PM

What a bunch of "learned" and helpful blokes you lot are !. It's amazing the amount of information that has come forward on this subject from one simple question.

I'm sure I'll have more questions on casting now that it has become clear to me that there are a number of WWF members experienced in this field.

Like I said earlier.....I'm glad I've found this forum !.

Cheers........Barry.

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