Thread: SEEKING ADVICE - choosing the right plans

Connor

Welcome to the forums.

advice on plans ...

Stitch and glue designs are by far the easiest to build.
Allow around 100 hours of building to assemble a pre-cut kit -- experienced builders will need less time.
allow additional time to cut the base material from ply sheets.

Skin and frame designs take less time. Sorry, can't give you a time estimate.

Strip build designs -- you first need to build a strong back -- take longer. Perhaps as long as 200 hours, verses 100 hours to assemble a pre-cut kit.


I'm assuming that the actual build part of your Year 12 project is very secondary to the design and documentation part.
If I am right, your canoe will almost certainly be a "better documented project" if you can start with self-drawn plans.
Kayak Foundry has advice and plans(?) for building a Wee Lassie canoe Blue Heron Kayaks

Blue heron kayaks also hosts a forum where you can ask questions as you build.


A plea
can you post a WIP as you build

Blue Heron kayaks used a Laughing loon designed Panache as the basis of his canoe strong back.
Wood Strip Canoe Plans / Laughing Loon Designs

Postage from Canada is currently running at 2 weeks, shipping plans and the construction manual from the US is possibly faster.

Connor, can you tell us what the specific problems were with the Wee Robbie build?

It would help to know if it was was to do with the shape being difficult to make or if it was faults with the plans.

The Wee Robbie is actually a Rob Mack's design and his website (Laughing Loon Kayaks) has been around a while. There is a lot of information on that site for builders. A cousin of mine has built 2 of Rob's designs and had no problems. Considering all this I would be surprised if there were problems with the plans. One thing you can see in photos of the Wee Robbie is that the bow and stern are quite pinched so that they have a keel effect for aiding tracking. This means that the strips in these areas will tend to pull away from the forms and can be difficult to work with.

There are plans for a few small canoes like this from various designers and they all seem to have this feature to some extent, including the Solo Packette.

One that looks to have the least pinching at the ends is the Rob Roy Solo 13 from Bear Mountain Boats, although it is a bit longer at 13 feet so will cost more in materials.

Ian's suggestion of designing your own with Kayak Foundry software is one way to obtain a simpler design. This would require you to learn more about hull design but that's a good thing.

Good luck with it.

Originally Posted by labr@

Ian's suggestion of designing your own with Kayak Foundry software is one way to obtain a simpler design. This would require you to learn more about hull design but that's a good thing.

ian was more thinking that for the HSC, the project documentation is worth something like 80% of the final mark. With the actual project build worth the remaining 20%. Or something similar. However, if the actual build is not at least attempted your final mark will be heavily discounted.

Issues that could be addressed in the documentation could include:
the canoe design -- bought plans should not present to the markers anywhere as well as your own design would. A decent project portfolio might devote 50% of the text to the design process.

the selection of material for the strong-back -- hardwood vs Radiata pine vs aluminium for the spine, ply vs MDF for the station frames, etc.

the selection of wood for the strips -- Palowna (spelling?) vs Western Red Cedar vs ??? -- and why Colin decided on his choice. Issues which might be covered are contrasting colour, material weight, etc.

discussion on how the strips are attached to the strong-back -- release material vs waxing the station frames.

discussion on the selection of the glue used to attach the strips -- PVA (there's at least 6 types) vs Polyurethane glue (again there are multiple types).

how far the canoe is finish sanded and "faired" -- the grits selected and why Colin stopped at a particular grit.

the selection of fibre glass or carbon fibre or polyester fabric epoxy for sheeting.

the selection of the type of epoxy used -- to my knowledge, there are at least 5 different epoxy formulations out there.


the above to give Colin a flavour of sort of things to cover in the documntation.

and while we are talking about the HSC Design and Technology course, I've never received a satisfactory explanation as to why contracting the actual project build to a 3rd party is not allowed. If a student's portfolio can demonstrate the level of design and detail documentation required to allow anybody to construct the item, why not engage an "anybody" to build the project.

At a Sydney working with Wood Show at least 10 years ago, one HSC student admitted to "buying" something like AUD $20,000 worth of carving lessons as part of their project.

Hey mate, the problems that where with the "wee Robbie" was that the ply mould wasn't quite high enough or something like that. I only skim read his portfolio. but after reading some of these reply's I think it might be his cutting out of the templates.

Is designing my own kayak through "kayak foundry" hard? this idea sounds very interesting but does it take long, because from what i have seen in other year 12 projects they cut it prettty close to the time limit?

many thanks,
Connor

Hey Ian,


Yeah I have read some resources and seen past portfolios on canoe projects, and I'm pretty sure where I'll be heading with the process ill do. I was thinking about buy plans and pre-milled strips of cedar timber to save time, as i am not really a experienced builder. I do plan on making the strong back out of some particle board and ply laying around the woodtech room, and fibre glassing the hull and that sort of stuff. Any tips on fibre glassing a canoe like this would be appreciated, dad has done some fibre glassing making floors in speed boats etc. Some other people have mentioned making my own plans as well, is it hard to do? is it time consuming?

many thanks,
Connor

Hey Ian,

No the the portfolio, the documentation, is worth 40% of your mark and the actual project accounts or 60%. No buying plans or templates to help make the canoe does not really impact your result, my teacher has said it does not really affect, he is a HSC marker, and two years ago at my school a canoe was made, he received a mark of 96% overall, he had bought plans. For the Strong back I have some stands ill use to prop it up on a some radiator pine or particle board depending if i need to buy it or there is some laying around at school that is big enough tat i can use. the strips will be red western cedar, its flexible and I quite like the colour of the wood. I am only at the start of this project and havent got as far as to choose what glue ill use or specifics like that, i do know that ill be fibre glassing the hull. I know a couple mates who do a lot of fibre glassing one even sells it, so ill use what ever they recommended when i get to that point.

thank you for your help

they have to build the project because it is worth 60% of their mark. By simply buying the project from someone is only doing half the job. The markers look at the skill and the technicality of the project as well as how good the portfolio is. Yes, the portfolio is very important but the actual project is as or more important than the portfolio they work hand in hand. I don't have 20,000 dollar laying around but it is very possible to get top marks without spending a fortune.

Connor

Hi Connor

I understand what you say, but I don't necessarily agree with the "system". But that discussion can be parked.


The cost of good material for the strong back and it's supports will be immaterial compared to the cost of the Western Red Cedar canoe building strips.
For that reason alone I would advise against using any "scraps laying around" for the strong back. When you buy the plans, pay extra if needs be to get a detailed construction manual, even if the manual is for a boat other than the one you are building.
You can save considerable building time if the cedar strips you intend purchasing are beaded and coved by the supplier.

However, perhaps you should be sitting down when you get the quote for supply of the WRC strips.


fairing and sanding the wood strips will generate a lot of dust which for some people is an irritant. If you don't have access to a sander with a vacuum hose connection -- try as hard as you can to do the sanding outside.


Fibre glassing
Remember that no mater how pretty the cedar strips look, their primary function is to keep the fibre glass cloth a set distance apart so that you end up with a composite construction. Glass-wood-glass.

Wetting out the glass so that it becomes completely clear is very important -- perhaps more critical than installing the cedar strips. Don't rush this step of the process.
Your choice of glass weight and width and how you arrange the "warp and weft" of the glass fabric is also important. A "consultant" with fabric technology experience is useful.

And then there's the epoxy resin itself. My suggestion to you is that choosing an epoxy that mixes in a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio by volume is smarter than choosing an epoxy that mixes in a 1:4 or 1:5 ratio. The 1:1 and 1:2 mix ratios have a greater inbuilt margin for mixing errors. If you can, select an epoxy formulation with no propensity for amine blushing and remember to wear PPE when mixing and using the epoxy.



so far I've built two "stitch and glue" kayaks and have had a ball both times.

G'day Connor.
I have 80% finished one of Rob Macks kayaks (the double) and it all went together pretty well. In my experience his designs are pretty good. Regardless of what design you go for I would suggest that you read Robs' shop tips on his web site. I pretty much followed all of Rob's suggested techniques and was pleased with how it worked out
Laughing Loon Shop Tips

I used a heat gun as per his instructions to bend the strips for sharper turns around the bow and stern.
I used paulownia wood below the water line and western red cedar (WRC) above. Below the water line is where some of the sharper twists and bends were in the strips on my craft. Paulownia is softer than western red and was easy to form in the tighter spots. However, it didn't carry the curve of the hull between plywood stations quite as well as WRC, but it all faired up OK.

There's quite a bit of work in building one of these craft, at least there was in mine, so I would keep it as simple as possible if on a time line.

Originally Posted by tony_A

G'day Connor.
I have 80% finished one of Rob Macks kayaks (the double) and it all went together pretty well. In my experience his designs are pretty good. Regardless of what design you go for I would suggest that you read Robs' shop tips on his web site. I pretty much followed all of Rob's suggested techniques and was pleased with how it worked out

In addition to Tony's advice re Rob Macks' shop tips, I strongly suggest that even if you don't use one of Rob's Laughing Loon canoe designs, you find the approx AUD $80 needed to buy Rob's detailed building instructions. However, given that Rob will discount the USD $25 cost of the "detailed building instructions" if you go onto buy one of his plans, I suggest you just bite the bullet and order the complete package in one hit.

Importantly, don't solely rely on what you find on Youtube for "tips".

and, based on Rob Macks' advice, search for and, if necessary, pay extra to get an Australian sourced epoxy that behaves like SystemThree's General Purpose resin.

Kayak Foundry is fairly easy to learn but you also need to learn some design principles. This means it would be a good learning experience but given that you are on a timeline it may not be the best option.

I was just looking for some books on canoe building and there are a few good ones. Either "Canoecraft" by Ted Moores or "Building a strip canoe" by Gil Gilpatrick would serve well as an instruction guide. Both of these include plans but I think they are for larger canoes than you want. Nick Schade's book "Building Strip Planked boats" includes plans for his Nymph which is a canoe in the size range you are looking at. It would be worth having a look at this - it is about $35 including delivery from Book Depository.

As for materials :
- Seriously consider using Paulownia for the strips. I haven't checked prices lately but at one stage it worked out cheaper than cedar. It is also a bit lighter.
- The epoxy I used on my first builds is no longer available and I now use West 105 resin with 207 special hardener. There are others around but I don't know enough about them to trust them yet. Whatever you do use, it needs to be marine grade and suitable for clear laminating.