Thread: Bandsaw spec's to allow anything from fine pieces to milling logs

Mat

The sort of woods you have mentioned are going to be challenging for any bandsaw. Standard single phase power will limit you to 15amps and up to a 3HP machine. I would not go for anything smaller and you may still find you need to cut logs in half (lengthwise) to stand a reasonable chance of feeding them through your machine. The cutting capability will be more down to the choice of blade. For breaking down logs you don't want anything with more than two teeth per inch and probably three quarter pitch or one inch pitch (one tooth per inch) would be better on a 1" wide blade. If you subsequently wish to do fine work, change to a narrower blade with more teeth.

You will very quickly find out what your machine can handle. Remember that you will not be cutting down the centre so your cutting height will handle larger logs than the throat height providing the saw has the grunt. You will be taking off a cheek first and then having cut a flat, flip it 90°. A sled will be essential and your biggest issue will be handling logs into position. The species you have mentioned are not only very hard (and unforgiving on a bandsaw blade) but very heavy too. Many of the videos you will see will be cutting woosey softwoods and give the impression that it is easy going.

I suspect that with Redgum and Spotted Gum you will have to break down logs with a chainsaw first into two halves. This will ease the cutting burden and the lifting aspect.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by mat-with-one-t

Hi guys.

I have regular access to some nice (and often very hard and heavy) hardwood logs and hunks of tree. They are most often spotted gum or redgum. I have pretty limited space, however luckily most bandsaws have a small footprint! Height doesn't matter, and I'll likely put it on a mobile base to allow better all-round access for doing bigger jobs. I plan to have a table saw soon too, so long rips of milled stock will happen on that. This post is mainly asking about milling logs on a bandsaw, as well as doing finer work.

So size? I suppose up to the sort of stock that can be lifted by 2 blokes into position. I'd make sleds (seen some vids on the googlemachine) and so on to make the process safer and easier. I'd imagine I'd want a generous throat and height size?
So power? I imagine hardest work would be maybe 400mm of redgum (I also have some neutron-star dense West Uustralian Jarrah) being slabbed up?
Is there a tradeoff here when it comes to "normal" work? I don't want to buy a big expensive stump muncher, only to find it's not great at fine work.

First up Jarrah is not that hard, it's one of the softer woods that I mill. Redgum and especially Spotted Gum are harder.
Next, ripping cuts more than about 75mm deep with a TS are problematic, I would use the bandsaw to make >50mm ripping cuts.

Upright bandsaw milling is less about what two blokes can lift and more about what two blokes can manage.
eg 400 mm diameter hardwood logs are about 125 kg/m.
BUT
While two fit blokes could maybe lift a 1m section of a 400mm diameter hardwood log I seriously doubt they could safely put it through a bandsaw.
Even half this becomes a PITA because the shorter it is the more difficult it is for two fit blokes to handle. Its like two blokes trying to pick up a large rock,

For logs longer than about 1m a sturdy outboard roller stand and sled system will be critical for big stuff (and I'm not even talking 400mm diameter) because if the logs roll even slightly the band will be toast.

I too had plans to do lots of milling with my upright BS so I built a small one man operable BS sled back in 2015 see Bandsaw log cutting sled
It does not need outboard roller stands (although I do use them) and is limited to about 700mm long logs.
The maximum size log that I feel I can comfortably control on my own through the BS is about 250mm in diameter and 500mm long which equates to ~25kg of green hardwood log. I usually just use the sled to cut two orthogonal faces and then remove the sled and cut up against the regular BS fence.

These days because I have access to 2 bandsaw mills and 3 chainsaw mills, my BS sled use is restricted to small awkwardly shaped or unusual pieces.
Usually I can mill what I want using the bandsaw mills (but these are located 1/2hr away and are not always available) so sometimes I just break small logs up into 1 person manageable length with a small chainsaw mill at my place and then resaw these on my BS. Mine is a 19" BS with a 3HP 3P motor and VFD speed control and carbide tipped band.

Breaking logs up first with chainsaw mills is much easier than trying to do it all on the BS.
I can mill a 400 mm diam log up to 5m long with my small chainsaw mill that then if needed makes it far easier than putting it through a bandsaw.
For logs smaller than 500mm I use a 72 cc chains saw with a 600mm bar on and home made chainsaw mill that I threw together as a quick and dirty experiment in 2005 - still works great.
Usually I break up <50mm thick slabs using a hand held circular and a guide board. Put then through the thicknesser to generate a flat face and then for thinner stuff I resaw on the BS

If the logs are small and unusual (eg Pistachio or fruit wood) and I don't want to turn too much good wood into sawdust I still use the BS sled.
The thread about the Pistachio milling in it has some other examples of my small chainsaw milling.

A 70cc chinese chainsaw and a budget chainsaw mill will cut up a whole of timber from small (<400mm) logs before it craps out
Even a reasonable 50cc saw would do 400mm at a pinch.
Lot more portable than an upright bandsaw, and you will be able to cut much longer/heavier logs that 2 blokes can lift up onto a BS sled.
If really depends on wood shape and how much wood you want/need to mill.

[ADDITION] I see Paul beat me to the punchline and also liked the bit about youtube showing lots of milling of woossy softwoods

400mm thick redgum is serious sawmilling and like Paul says there is nothing in the 240v range that has that capasity. The biggest saws in the range would push it to get 350mm. Perhaps scale back to 300mm max. Due to the weight you would need infeed and outfeed rollers to take the weight off the saw table to avoid damage. This clip gives some idea of the setup required.
How-to Mill Large Logs on your Shop Bandsaw - YouTube
Hope its some help.
Regards
John
PS Bob beat me to the post while I was looking for a suitable clip. He does a fair bit of milling so would take his advice. Building a setup like in that clip does get look like it gets a decent result but how often would you dismantle that rig to put on a small blade and do small work.

Tanks to those who have responded. Yes - I’d seen that video of the guy using a sled and so on. Big heavy stuff!

This is starting to feel like it may be best to find a local place that can mill stuff for me? Dunno. It’s a bit like thicknessers. I had looked at various wider bed units, but they were expensive and took up too much space, and I figured I’d only occasionally need one. Then I found a local cabinetry place with a monster 2500mm bed thicknesser, and they were happy for me to run joined table tops through it for $50.....

Either way, given I’d still like to be able to mill at least smaller log sections, I suppose I should be on the lookout for a single phase 3hp bandsaw with maybe 400mm height? Ideas?

awesome. Thanks so far. Mat

Ae soon as even small logs are involved you will need a chainsaw, even if it's to just cut the logs to shorter length to get them onto the bandsaw.
At that point it's ~$100 to purchase a small chinese chainsaw mill that you can mill wider and longer logs with.
Maybe settle for a something like a 16" BS and buy a better chainsaw and a mill?

Word of warning - milling is highly addictive - once you start its hard to stop.

Originally Posted by BobL

Ae soon as even small logs are involved you will need a chainsaw, even if it's to just cut the logs to shorter length to get them onto the bandsaw.
At that point it's ~$100 to purchase a small chinese chainsaw mill that you can mill wider and longer logs with.
Maybe settle for a something like a 16" BS and buy a better chainsaw and a mill?

Word of warning - milling is highly addictive - once you start its hard to stop.

I have too many addictions already. Add it to the list! I actually need a chainsaw (for, well, chainsawing). any suggestions for a setup involving a quality chainsaw that can then be mounted in a mill setup? I could then head onto a bandsaw. So would I still be best trying for a 3hp 400mm unit?

Chainsaws - for milling

Milling is really hard on saws so brand wise this is how I would rate them.

Tier 1: Stihl and Husqvrana
Tier 2: Makita/Johnsered
Tier 3: Cheap chainsaw from a Hardware store
Tier 4: Cheap Chinese Ebay clone saws
There's little difference between 3 and 4 but you should get a longer warranty and at least in teh case of 3) you will be able to take it back when it die


To find out about chainsaw milling, head over to Arboristsite.com saw milling forum and have a poke around in there.
The Milling 101 sticky is a good place to start

Originally Posted by BobL

Chainsaws - for milling

Milling is really hard on saws so brand wise this is how I would rate them.

Tier 1: Stihl and Husqvrana
Tier 2: Makita/Johnsered
Tier 3: Cheap chainsaw from a Hardware store
Tier 4: Cheap Chinese Ebay clone saws
There's little difference between 3 and 4 but you should get a longer warranty and at least in teh case of 3) you will be able to take it back when it die


To find out about chainsaw milling, head over to Arboristsite.com saw milling forum and have a poke around in there.
The Milling 101 sticky is a good place to start

Thanks! More stuff to learn about! Any suggestions regarding jigs for chainsaw milling? Also, if I had such a chainsaw setup, what should I do about a bandsaw?? Should I still aim for a 3Hp single phase 400mm (ish) unit??

Originally Posted by mat-with-one-t

Thanks! More stuff to learn about! Any suggestions regarding jigs for chainsaw milling? Also, if I had such a chainsaw setup, what should I do about a bandsaw?? Should I still aim for a 3Hp single phase 400mm (ish) unit??

I usually recommend beginners start with a small alaskan mill like this one.
Lots of things are called Alaskan mills but make sure you get one that holds the chainsaw bar at both ends.


slabbing.jpg

As for tHe Bandsaw. 400mm wide boards are nice, but if all you have is 400 mm diameter logs those boards must contain heart wood and are highly likely to twist and warp.
To get flat/straight 400 mm wide boards you will need to cut them from bigger logs - ideally from 900mm diameter logs so they can be quarter sawn and contain no heartwood.
They can be obtained from smaller logs but they will have to be flat sawn and are highly likely to cup when dried - so best to cut 60mm thick slabs, once dry these can be resawn on a BS.

I've worked with 400mm boards a few times - it's not easy.
These were 25mm thick an d flat sawn from a 650 mm log with a (14HP) BS mill.
NIPmilling3.jpg

If you want to do these in hardwoods with an upright BS you will need at least a 3HP saw and ideally a carbide tipped blade.

Your question (depending on your idea of tire longevity, i.e I want forever, compared to 5 or 10 years)
relates somewhat to tire camber, you can choose either.

I can get 375mm under the guides on my 24" machine, possibly more if need be with some effort.

I only have a 13a household setup, so needed to find a 3 phase machine, as I need to be flexible in regards to this,
and go the VFD/inverter route, rather than being limited to a 2hp machine.

It's only a cheap hundred pound job, but alright for me, one could go fancier and get better motor protection, for what the likes
of the full depth of cut might need, but likely wanna keep a feel of the cable for that.
Sounds like you can afford an upgrade in this regards, of which I've no clue about, say you want powerful extraction also.

What I can tell you is if that's still down the road, but unfeasable for the near future, then going VFD route
might/could certainly make the most sense.

3 phase used market will be less than half the cost of single phase, so a quarter the cost of something fairly decent new.
I can run this machine as it's got a 3 hp, dual voltage motor, which if one looks at the motor nameplate, one can see the 240v
which means it can be run from my domestic supply.

The VFD will take care of the startup inertia of the machine providing smooth adjustable soft start at the touch of a button,
allowing one to choose what's likely a far better machine, with 3hp compared to being limited to 2hp if going with single phase due to startup surge.

Easy to wire, might take a day or two to learn to program it, some things are very very important, and respect needed, simple though as they are,
it needs to be said.
likely a lot faster than comparing brand new consumer grade machines, or the likes of which used,
and will open up a whole world of opportunity, all which may have been deemed unsuitable before.

3 important rules for these which must be adhered to....

1 No touching those main inuput/output terminals, as these devices have capacitors which store a lethal charge,
even after being unplugged !!!
These need to drain off before going near those wires.

2 One VFD per machine, with no plug inbetween, preferably in a metal enclosure.(five folds of sheet metal to make a box up, +back & lid )

3 Know what the parameters do, (these act as the motors brain) so you don't set it to run at warp speed and blow your motor up.
easy when you get to know what the 15 or so applicable parameters do.

Good luck
Tom

Basically seven wires to it, Live, neutral and earth from the wall, and 3 "hots" and an earth from the motor.
These you do not touch as they hold charge after being unplugged.
startrite 2.JPG

The motor of this machine, 3hp, and one can see 240v stated.
the "D" stands for DELTA (low voltage) often a triangle symbol is used instead, which means this is a dual voltage motor.

Once you can see this, suitably powered along with the 240v symbol, then that's what you need to be looking for.
A 24" machine will likely be a bit cheaper due to larger being more frequent, often the good 20" saws go for more.

Wow thanks Tom. Now I’ve got even more reading to do!! I had looked into installing 3ph at time of a home reno, but I recall it was silly expensive at a time that we were haemorrhaging cash! I briefly looked at the voltage devices you refer to - I’ll revisit. I agree - I am on the lookout for all sorts of tools for a new setup, and 3ph items tend to be higher quality and lower price overall!
More homework for me!

If you want to get into VFDs go to the electronics forum and read the 2 stickies.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f271

To quote a member Deema from another ukworkshop forum, as I no nothing about these things, perhaps a less hassle free option for the homeowner,
rather than a tenant
"you don’t need VFDs there is a third option. You can get a digital phase converter. This produces genuine 415V and can support more than one machine. It can also be used as a VFD for speed control. However, the nice feature is that there is no change to your 3 phase machines necessary. Just plug them in and your all good. You can get them up to 15KW so will run most things!"

All the best
Tom

Originally Posted by Tom trees

To quote a member Deema from another ukworkshop forum, as I no nothing about these things, perhaps a less hassle free option for the homeowner,
rather than a tenant
"you don’t need VFDs there is a third option. You can get a digital phase converter. This produces genuine 415V and can support more than one machine. It can also be used as a VFD for speed control. However, the nice feature is that there is no change to your 3 phase machines necessary. Just plug them in and your all good. You can get them up to 15KW so will run most things!"

There are also now relatively cheap VFDs available that also convert 240 single phase direct to 415V 3P so mo machine motor mods are needed. Check to EcoGoo VFDs. The guys over in the MW forums have been using these successfully for some time. This s briefly described in my VFDs for newbies document in the electronics forum.

ie

To avoid reconnection and/or rewiring of 415V delta connected motors there are special VFDs that will convert
240V SP to 415V (3P) but these usually cost more than 240V SP to 240V 3P VFDs.