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24th October 2022, 10:38 AM #16
Tom
A phase converter is indeed another option to the VFD enabling you to use a 3Ph motor while still only having a 1Ph supply, but you will still be limited by your cabling and plug capacity. In Australia standard wiring will go up to 15 amps (standard in the UK is 13amps from memory) and this in practical terms will allow a 3HP motor to be utilised. Single phase plugs are available here in 20amps and 32amps, but you also have to install sufficiently heavy cabling to carry those loads and of course have the appropriate circuit breakers too. Not impossible but there is certainly a lot more effort involved.
It is something I have in the pipeline so I am certainly not decrying it.
Regards
Paul
Edit: I was having trouble posting a link, but this is the first of four videos on phase converters by the same guy and is what I plan to base my efforts on when I get around to doing this about a hundred years from now!
Rotary phase converter - UK - Part 1, Intro. - YouTubeBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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24th October 2022 10:38 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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24th October 2022, 11:06 AM #17.
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Paul is correct, 3P wiring is much more heavily regulated with each 3P (even small ones) machine usually requiring its own 3P powerpoint, line and breaker.
Using a phase changer and wiring all machines to that will usually violating some aspect of electrical regs.
Unless you can find them second hand 3P power breakers, sockets and plugs cost a bomb, not to mention the bigger breaker board that is usually needed.
For the cost of even intermediate level VFDs on 3HP or less machines, it's usually still cheaper to purchase a VFD for each machine than to purchase breakers/powerpoints/plus and enlarge the breaker board. The determining factor is installation charges which depends on the knowhow and skill of the user. If a sparky has to be hired to do everything which legally it the case, it's debatable which is cheaper.
Provided soft start is used on the VFD, multiple machines even up to 3HP the VFD can be run from a 10A SP circuit ie one circuit and one breaker. Of course you cannot run all machines simultaneously under load but thats only an issue in a multiuser shed.
In my shed I have the following 3P machines on VFDs on one 10A circuit; 1HP MW lathe, 0.5HP metal mill, and a 0.25HP exhaust fan.
On another 10A circuit there is the 1.5HP DP, and the 1HP WW lathe.
The 3HP belt sander and 3HP bandsaw have their own 15A circuits but knowing what currents they draw I could safely run them on one of the 10A circuits.
The 4HP VFD also has its own 15A circuit but I would not run that on a 10A circuit as it draw more than 10A when its used at more than 50Hz..
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24th October 2022, 08:27 PM #18Intermediate Member
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Yoinks this is all getting complicated and likely expensive....!
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25th October 2022, 12:19 AM #19Senior Member
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I cannot advise on cost regarding the market, for instance in Eire & UK now is the time to be looking for a bargain due to the winter months,
not that I don't see good deals in summer, but forgetting about that and focusing back to a shoestring budget
This does not need be an expensive thing, quite the opposite really.
I bought my machine for 500 euros, (needing work, twice that would get one ready for work.
VFD, just over a hundred for something to power 3hp
Switches on ebay 3 quid each, box of crimp connectors 3 quid for multi pack in auto factor/leccy shop
For some new four core wire, about three quid a meter from motor to VFD if ya need, should it be damaged or bit short,
same with the 3 core for the input, you may have that lying around, or might be wanting to splash out and spend a tenner on nice stuff, someday!
Cable glands to match for dust, I had these already, likely 2 or 3 quid a pop, need one for the mains input to the cabinet,
another from motor to cabinet, (and possibly another for eternal switches if you like,)
Sheet metal box, I used an old exit sign for me bandsaw, could find a lot of things which would do the job
just something to protect it from getting knocked mainly, could likely take a splash/skite of water if I dropped me glue cleaning pot somewhere beside it, and dust.
You could go all fancy on that last part if you liked, and put in cooling fans, which might be necessary for where you are,
I presume Bob L's links will advise regarding heat,
If this is moderate use, and the place is cool, then perhaps worth a revisit, that's gravy for later.
My objective is to try and explain how feesible this can be, the whole deal as it were,
i.e likely easier stuff to find, better machine for a quarter of the cost,
lesser cost on the logistics for one who's on a shoestring, possibly more apt in my case as I'm happy to keep my 13a plugs
since an upgrade to my CU might mean an upgrade to my rent.
Sorry to get back on topic again, and try to explain and get it all covered before ya know it
Not much cost involved, and for the truly frugal, my comments regarding looking for machines with dual voltage motors in which one can see 240v (not in anyway uncommon)will likely keep the cost down compared to buying ...fixed "star" (high 380/400v) wound only motors .
as the last I seen, few years back, those VFD's were an extra 50% of cost,
and folks a lot more knowledgable than I, were highly speculative about whether they would work.
Glad to read someone took the gamble, will be looking that up, cheers.
Modern motors of which are suitable will be 2 pole motors (around 3000RPM) or 4 pole motors (around half the 3000RPM), and anything else would be strange and unusual to come across regarding bandsaws
i.e some hundred or more year old machine may have a different type of induction motor.
Just sneaking in some more knowledge, now you know that "motor pole number is one parameter and obviously must be entered correctly, be it a two or four pole motor.
One last tip, these makeup boxes make perfect windows for VFD enclosures
SAM_6015.jpg
All the best
Tom
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25th October 2022, 07:16 AM #20Senior Member
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Not much to it really, here's another photo which is fairly clear, and a good illustration of the size of these terminals,
Normal practice is to bolt both earths to the cabinet, the crimp connectors are the round type, so a bolt will go through them, with another earth stacked so
only a single wire needs to fit, as it's a fairly tight fit as you can see on the huanyang's.
Also, you can switch to a 16a supply if you decide to upgrade in future with no issues, swap out the cable and gland, job done.
DSCN2018.jpg
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25th October 2022, 08:58 AM #21.
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If I was doing this I would initially not focus on getting a VFD or even a Bandsaw.
When anyone starts milling it takes at least about 18 months and more like 2 years for the first wood you cut to be dry enough to be resawn.
So I would recommend starting with a small milling setup and then you can take your time about getting a bandsaw and learning the ins and outs of getting a large or used 3P BS and whether or not to get a VFD etc. Its also spreads the cost out. Who knows what might come up over that person
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25th October 2022, 10:16 AM #22Senior Member
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Regarding your 400mm, there's an Italian (the industry standard) machine which is still 3hp which might be worth a mention.
The SNAC 640, not quite as common as the slightly lighter SNA machines.
Its a bit of a jump beyond this in size, weight and power.
Guessing the new breed of extra tall resawing SCM formula series is much too new and costly, and possibly more powerful needing de-rating to 3hp via the VFD
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25th October 2022, 01:55 PM #23Senior Member
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Some more flavours of ACM's SNAC line include...
The Griggio paint scheme
741-5-Griggio-SNAC-640-Bandsaw-1.jpg
Or the Felder FB route, maybe not these though?, the newer Felder's have 4KW motors
Felder newer fb640.jpg
This is the older flavour of Felder's spec'd SNAC, and depending on your frugality more suitable as I presume one would want to
match the original HP/KW rating with the same rated VFD/inverter if wanting to de-rate to 3HP/2.2KW to work on the household supply,
that is for the above FB, not the one below.
Might possibly be worth getting a posh VFD if de-rating, I haven't done that parameter, but have used 2.2kw rated VFD's like the huanyang
which has these features, to test run a 2HP/1.5KW motor before.
I'd want the go ahead for that craic, rather than winging it though !!!!!
What I can tell you is companies like Hitachi recommend having an oversized VFD for some good measure.
This is the older Felder, which is likely to be the sorta money I'm takin bout...
Felder fb 640 original.jpg
Note this is only the badge, not the name plate, would like to see that for clarity, but looks to be 3 horses to me, and I'd suspect dual voltage, for yer 240v delta option.
FB640 original spec.jpg
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25th October 2022, 02:31 PM #24Senior Member
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Bandsaw Blades
Hi Mat,
On the subject of bandsaw blades, you might try the Wood Slicer resaw bandsaw blades from Highland Woodworking in the USA. You can order a custom length and they are great for resawing. I got one on my Carbatec bandsaw and am very happy with it (though I don't use it on big trunks).
Here's the link:
Wood Slicer Bandsaw Blade | Resaw Blade | Custom Length Bandsaw Blades
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25th October 2022, 03:15 PM #25.
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Just heads up that it's not a good idea to use an oversized VFD compared to the motor UNLESS the maximum current output by the VFD can be reduced to suit the motor.
If the Machine jams the VFD will supply current up to the VFDs maximum which can cook the motor before the VFD decides to turn off.
Not all (especially cheap) VFDs allow for the max current to be set.
If the VFD max current is set lower than usual to protect the motor then I would ask, why do that? - just buy the right sized VFD to begin with and you can save a few bob.
One reason an overspecced VFD is sometimes used is because of higher than usual start up currents on some setups (like dust extractors) but that is better dealt with by using a soft start setting on the VFD. Its better for the machine, motor and VFD to do things this way.
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26th October 2022, 01:32 AM #26Senior Member
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Not going to pretend I know what I'm talking about BobL, but here is the reasoning behind,
If you search for Hitachi VFD fla, you will see this written numerous websites, just copied one below...
FLA rating (Full Load Ampere nameplate rating), the inverter provides solid state motor overload protection at 115% of motor FLA or equivalent.
I'm just a joe soap, hence my comment about asking someone knowledgable like yourself regarding getting a machine which has a larger than 3hp motor,
and just how reliable a cheap VFD could be at de-rating it.
Just saying and as you made a point about it, likely I should have edited my post to underline the important
Trying to get my point/q1uestion which I didn't make across,
If this de-rating feature is omitted in many a cheap VFD, then in my mind it could well take an expensive component to do this.
By that thinking, it seems worth asking you guys if this might be a bad idea, regarding using a cheap VFD for this purpose.
All the best
Tom
Trying to keep this interesting, seems I've ran out of older 640mm Italian saws.
The SNAC are the only ones this size, which has 400mm resaw capacity, and everything else 375mm(ish)
Was trying to find more for Mat, but its getting more difficult.
Perhaps Bridgewood sold a 640, I've failed to find it on the net,
but plenty of 540's and 740's about., below is the former, and likely the same as Felder more powerful motor
bridgewood 540.jpg
Not many other saws with 400mm under the guides, perhaps some of the newer ones like Rikon might be worth looking at,
which would likely be a lot more spendy than these old machines.
Tom
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26th October 2022, 09:27 AM #27Senior Member
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I think I may have upset some folk by stating "I haven't done that parameter" when infact I had to enter this parameter,
and that I hadn't been clear enough that on some makes of VFD, de-rating motor HP is not an option!
so one must use the same rated VFD as the motor if so.
What I should have said was, I've never de-rated a motor which was too much for my 13amp household supply,
and I wouldn't dive head first into doing so using a cheap VFD without the go ahead!
(EDIT: Might as well ask, as Likely I am being misleading regarding my "oversized VFD" statement... perhaps it's just oversized components like larger capacity IGBT's used
or some other wizardry for a given model.)
I have asked this before about de-rating motors, regarding similar electrical constraints and never seem to get an answer?
Perhaps someone could suggest why not, should Mat find, say one of them newer FB640's with 4KW motor.
Sorry for any confusion or annoyance
Tom
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26th October 2022, 02:57 PM #28Intermediate Member
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Wow thanks everyone. Lots to review.....
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26th October 2022, 08:22 PM #29Senior Member
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Here's a screenshot of video of the SNAC, but no cutting unfortunately, 3 horse single phase running from 13 amps,
I don't think I'd be so brave!
Hope you'll have help to move it, these I'm not sure will lay on their column, compared to the SNA, have a foot brake which I
ain't sure disassembles so easy to lay down the hard way, which you could easily chok that if necessary, and a fair bit more table than mine, which you would remove beforehand.
The SNA/star is just about movable for me without any gear, bar a dolly.
snacvideo.png
Would be interested to read what the choices of VFD you folks would/might consider, with parameters for de-rating motors
should Mat stumble across a 4KW Felder flavour
and wishes to get engine hoist or tackle on roof if need be, and some rollers to save him lifting much.
Say if he wishes to have "passive" dust collection for the meanwhile, whilst he considers getting upgrade to his CU for decent extraction.
Obviously Mat would keep an eye on heat, and not expect too much from his supply, nor his 3hp motor, as it's about the smallest you could likely go.
(you do not want to bog down a bandsaw using a VFD under any circumstance, I have a VFD to prove it)
(hope I'm not de-railing this thread too much Mat)
Tom
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27th October 2022, 02:28 AM #30Senior Member
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Perhaps I should mention some features for Mat with one t's sake, should he be thinking about hundred quid VFD's
Make sure you know what you are getting, some near identical huanyang vfd's are micro sized even though seemingly rated the same!
Make sure they have the dimensions you expect.
The one on the right is the "huanyang" .hyo2d223b IIRC...rated 2.2kw ...possibly one which escaped, or whatever the story is, as these do not have components for a breaking resistor (component which takes the energy drawn from fast stopping)
There is built in breaking features in all I've seen, one can select how many seconds of coasting stop they wish, I cannot remember off the top of my head what I've wrote down, it stops reasonably quickly.
45024-2.JPG45020-6.JPG
The one on the left is an isocon-askpower 2.2kw
Many mini ones of these exist with same dimensions on the listings, check feedback!
These do not have the option of de-rating a motor, so I had to use the huanyang to test a smaller motor.
I've not figured out whether these will take "three wire control" or if I will carry on using a simple mechanical toggle switch instead of
a simple push button like I done when the huanyang was installed.
Three wire control is digital signal vs two wire control is simply un-joining the wire between two of the micro terminals in a mechanical fashion.
Push buttons for signaling to VFD, or toggle switch to break the connection between the two micro terminals.
These wires will not shock you provided you don't touch the input or output, and is no sweat to make sense of whilst you admire your newly found spectacular deal, the parameters are the important thing to do.
Just pointing out features, should someone have a better suggestion than the Huanyang, which has lots of bells and whistles
mainly the de-rating ability, for around the same dough?
Why not suggest it, well I don't want to buy parts and the hassle to make the fan only kick in when needed, so I've the Isacon-askpower on my
3 hp bandsaw, as I have it plugged in when working using it for all manners not just resawing, and plug in the lightly humming huanyang on the 12" tablesaw only when needed, which isn't too often.
(three wire control is nice on the TS for push buttons (I have a hands free paddle with dowel to press stop)
I don't know if I would be as fond of starting a single phase saw this size for one little job, although the video above wasn't too bad,
compared to a single phase 20" machine I had prior,
Bandsaw fence antics - Copy.JPG
Just trying to get across how smooth the 3 phase VFD option is compared.
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