Thread: Bandsaw spec's to allow anything from fine pieces to milling logs

Originally Posted by Tom trees

Here's a screenshot of video of the SNAC, but no cutting unfortunately, 3 horse single phase running from 13 amps,
I don't think I'd be so brave!
Hope you'll have help to move it, these I'm not sure will lay on their column, compared to the SNA, have a foot brake which I
ain't sure disassembles so easy to lay down the hard way, which you could easily chok that if necessary, and a fair bit more table than mine, which you would remove beforehand.
The SNA/star is just about movable for me without any gear, bar a dolly.

Attachment 518513

Would be interested to read what the choices of VFD you folks would/might consider, with parameters for de-rating motors
should Mat stumble across a 4KW Felder flavour
and wishes to get engine hoist or tackle on roof if need be, and some rollers to save him lifting much.

Say if he wishes to have "passive" dust collection for the meanwhile, whilst he considers getting upgrade to his CU for decent extraction.
Obviously Mat would keep an eye on heat, and not expect too much from his supply, nor his 3hp motor, as it's about the smallest you could likely go.
(you do not want to bog down a bandsaw using a VFD under any circumstance, I have a VFD to prove it)

(hope I'm not de-railing this thread too much Mat)
Tom

I've gotten a bit lost along the way Tom! Is this a saw you're selling, or an example of a recommended larger single phase unit? I actually just missed a 3hp single phase near-new saw on a sale site for $850 - there seems to be a few "no name" Chinese units out there like this:

Bandsaw MJ3448 | Moonah Machinery

Mat

Originally Posted by BobL

Provided soft start is used on the VFD, multiple machines even up to 3HP the VFD can be run from a 10A SP circuit ie one circuit and one breaker. Of course you cannot run all machines simultaneously under load but thats only an issue in a multiuser shed.

One thing I might point out is that we mostly run a DE / DC as well as the primary machine.

Running a 3hp Bandsaw and a 2hp (or more) DC / DE on the same circuit is not advised!

Yes, a 3hp bandsaw with soft start on a VFD may be capable of being powered from a standard 10A circuit.

However, the user must be aware of what else may be on that same circuit or could potentially be used at the same time. Remember, wiring regs permit multiple GPO's on a single 10A circuit on the assumption that "they will not all be used simultaneously - and won't necessarily be connected to appliances drawing 10 amps".

Whereas our wood working machinery is likely to have high amp continuous demand for considerable periods of time throughout the day. That sort of duty cycle exceeds the design assumptions for standard 10A domestic power circuits and may compromise the wiring insulation and significantly increase the risk of fire.

Insurers may take a hard-line approach in the event of a fire claim - one of the many reasons they are precluding "home based business" type activity.

Load can accumulate quickly - a 3hp bandsaw + DC / DE + a room air filter + a workshop fan + sundry lighting; it all adds up.

Bandsaws have to be just about the easiest machine to change a motor on if needed to suit circumstances and could even be driven by a remote mounted motor via a belt drive.

Drats anyways, I was hoping Mat would t̶a̶k̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ b̶a̶i̶t̶ and find a cheap saw locally what's capable dealing with those big timbers.
It seems like my query might remain unanswered.
Not many chances does one get to pose such a question, (without the if's or buts) as 400mm under the guides isn't often sought!
Looks like my cunning plan failed.


Still up for a last ditch attempt to convert those who are new to the world of cheap 3 phase machinery
Should getting the newish Rikon with 400mm capacity/ in different colours not be available yet/or it have a larger than 3horse motor,
Screenshot-2022-11-7 Model 10-347 18 Professional Bandsaw - RIKON Power Tools.png
Or the same thing with the SCM formula series.Screenshot-2022-11-7 A SWEET Bandsaw Upgrade Laguna DriftMaster Review - YouTube.jpg


One last crack......
Not sure if you see many Felder's around, just for another example of a cheap machine, this could be a 700?,
would likely be too heavy for me to lift if it is, (soft floor/cheap casters)
Likely a few 700mm machines would have that capacity, but the weight and power is on another level compared to a 24" machine
(few 24" saws being built heavier than 300g)
You've gotta be there before the dealers get a whiff if you want the best deals.!

Screenshot-2022-4-27 Band Saws for sale in Cork for €700 on DoneDeal(1).jpgScreenshot-2022-11-6 Woodworking machines saws spindles planers lathes for sale in Clare for €1 .jpg

How about another lesson?

To try and make it a bit difficult,
Here's a German motor from a TS which I tested with my huanyang (this VFD is capable of de-rating)
What's to note from this?
Well it's a 2hp/1.5kW motor....
Magic.JPG
First thing is I look for, whether it's a dual voltage motor which will run on 220/240v (common to see dual voltage motors on these machines)
50hz motors/electricity where I am, and 60hz motors/electricity where you guys are. (that's fact and for Einstein's to explain)
RPM is close to 3000, which would be 3600RPM (ish) where you are, (something like that figure),
so it's a two pole motor (anything that's not this or approximately half this RPM is likely real odd and likely unsuitable for VFD)

So yer looking to see 3600ish or 1800ish RPM,. i.e those figures mean it's 2 pole, or 4 pole.
240v is stated for the cheapest VFD of whichever brand, likely much less cost.

Those two things are what you want to see.
Sorry I cannot give you advice regarding VFD's what's suitable for de-rating a Felder 4kW motor to 2.2kW
for it to run off your household supply.
As I was saying, hard to get a straight answer when you can give reason and evidence for doing so,
Not an unreasonable proposition to use a big saw without DC,
the bigger the table, the less dusty you get,


Get an upgrade to your supply to run both saw and extractor from separate breakers when you get round to it,
Should you stumble across a Felder flavour etc..you could adjust the saw's motor to run at whatever grunt you need thereafter
You might even find a 3hp 600mm/24" machine possibly adequate enough, some with 375mm under guides,
which would likely be more common, and likely no need to be concerned about de-rating motors originally intended to run on larger amperage.




Another Bob is a mod on a UK forum, the woodhaven2, and under his signature is a great write up titled
Induction motors vol 2, where you would find a great write up regarding everything you need to know.

Cheerio
Tom

Originally Posted by Tom trees

First thing is I look for, whether it's a dual voltage motor which will run on 220/240v (common to see dual voltage motors on these machines)
50hz motors/electricity where I am, and 60hz motors/electricity where you guys are. (that's fact and for Einstein's to explain)
RPM is close to 3000, which would be 3600RPM (ish) where you are, (something like that figure)

Mat and everyone else one the discussion are in Australia, and they use 220v - 240v and 50hz, like most of the world.

Thanks Colin, I thought ye were on 60hz over there.

That possibly simplifies things a bit regarding sourcing a machine, compared to the American market with 60hz Baldor/Leeson motors,
most of which specced twice as powerful as the Italian's have theirs.
Should it be that Mat or whomever may not wish to de-rate larger motors, maybe less intimidating for one who's not got a dedicated circut
yet, and just wants a reasonable amount of timber cut and stored in the meanwhile, whilst also having a bandsaw for day to day stuff.

Tom

Might as well post some more pictures of dual voltage motors, which can run from 240v , see the "delta" (low voltage) triangle symbol denoting this)
Both have suitable rpm speed, or motor "pole number" if you like, be it 2 or 4 pole as I said, 2840 as you can see.
Three horses so no need to de-rate.

These motor specs are highly likely to be on most 24" machines, always look on the motor nameplate, and not just a tag on the frame somewhere.

I just grabbed these from ebay, common as muck, just make sure of those three things if you see a machine going for a song locally.
dual voltage motor.jpgdual voltage motor 2.jpg

Suppose someone might be getting fimiliar with what stuff to be looking for on a bandsaw motor, so they can have some choice

Well maybe not in Mat's case, unless he's decided to have 30mm less capacity, can spring for above or larger again,
which is likely a bit much compared to a more manageable 600 or 640mm machine,
or whether he decides to get a sawmill instead.


How about a little quiz for yourself ?

leroy somer.jpg.jpg

another motor.jpg

Here's some 4 pole motors which run at half the speed, which are also suitable for VFD's
These will have a larger pulley, that's the only difference, enter the value of this motor pole parameter and/or RPM parameter accordingly, simple.
4 pole motor.jpg4pole motor 2.jpg
Getting a known brand VFD which has been documented online would be a good idea, just jot down the required parameters and compare/adjust to your motors values,
especially if you plan on de-rating, you'd need to make sure the unit has this function like the huanyang for instance.

You might not get advice without sympathy specifically on de-rating a larger than 3hp/2.2kW motor, say you found a Felder FB640 or whatever,
and were aware of not using a DC or anything else whilst using machine, and were going to take it easy on the cuts (which suits well with the manual paintbrush and dustpan extraction setup)
Perhaps not even, and only when you upgrade your supply.
Can be difficult to get advice on inverters, and all that, some dislike anything coming from a not so slow boat, and many forums won't allow talk about the cheap ones.

None of below is important if looking for a machine, its just a bit of bedtime reading.


Perhaps folks are just nervous as one could cook their motor, their supply or themselves by being ignorant, which might explain why it can be hard to get some answers.
Lots of folks don't bother making a box for their VFD
It doesn't have to be pretty.
tabernacle .jpg



An opportunity to cook a motor if not set to correct pole number, (2 or 4 pole and/or RPM)
some VFD's like the huanyang need both these values entered.

Another parameter related to RPM is the hertz value, and I was corrected above regarding your supply which I thought was the same as USA,
but its the same as ours, 50hz that is.

If you programmed it to 100hz the motor would be 50% faster running, make note these VFD's are factory set to run for CNC spindles at 400hz!
You don't hit start until all parameters are set correctly.

Remember not to touch the main input or output wires, even after unplugging for some time,
You might need to swap any one of the three wires around should the motor run backwards,
(that one time deal where this chance of getting electrocuted exists, wait until caps drain off before doing so)
and you won't be going near these wires once installed, period.

Perhaps some are not keen on using these things on the fly like below, it's not good practice for sure!
note 20 hertz is displayed, so less than half speed,
as it was smoother to turn the little sleeve on the shaft.

startrite sleeve.jpg

Hope some of my postings has made one more informed regarding getting a real cheap machine for themselves.
Not that I think that the multiple threads on the subject which exist are no good,
Infact Bob's induction motor volume 2 is about the best I've came across,

Little bites first on simple machines is a good way to get the basics, i.e no lathes with twenty buttons.
There will be mutual agreement on the parameters should one be worried about that.
You may get many advisory comments about upgrading your supply though!


All the best

Originally Posted by Tom trees

make note these VFD's are factory set to run for CNC spindles at 400hz!
You don't hit start until all parameters are set correctly.

None of the VFD's I buy direct from the manufacturer are set up for CNC spindles as they don't supply spindles, in fact most VFD's are not programmed that way.

I'll bet the Powtran VFD's if that's what you still use in your extraction installations, might be a bit more pricey than the Huanyang's,
I must look them up and also the EcoGoo drives to compare.

The Powtran's seem very very good should you still be using them,
as I guess a 3hp cyclone with decent impeller might be regarded as a heavier load than a 3hp bandsaw
which is being babied somewhat.
Well... that's the impression I got from Jer Schmidt's, Bill Pentz inspired cyclone build video on youtube.

I'm still in the woods regarding the most efficient design of cyclone for my very strange workshop (keeping with a domestic circuit, no large runs, yet still flexible) thus roundabout asking here as I see a rare opportunity that someone might need a specific bandsaw, with that 400mm capacity
and yet wishes to keep the domestic circuit for now.
Perhaps many might be reluctant to suggest working without DC, can see that,
In my view it's manageable enough without for the time being, it's not like I'm using my machines in an industrial way,
more like hobby or trade rated use, in a hand tool environment.

The 24" machine is quite efficient in terms of load, better momentum with the larger wheels, has the capacity and equally as importantly good stout parts for a stoutish
gauge 1" blade to get to 2500kpsi if needed, all synergistic stuff regarding making the job as easy as possible,
I'd choose thin gauge blades if I needed to resaw tall stuff at max capacity.

Nothing regarding my use of the machine I don't think is over the top, possibly bit large some might say, I could get by with a 20" saw,
but gotten to like my 500 quid saw by now, don't think I'd downsize if I had the choice, as I prefer to be that much further away from the blade.

All the best
Tom

Originally Posted by Tom trees

I'll bet the Powtran VFD's if that's what you still use in your extraction installations, might be a bit more pricey than the Huanyang's,

Tom, my point was that all VFD's are not programmed for spindles as you suggested in fact apart from the VFD's sold on Ebay in spindle kits very few or none more likely are programmed that way and telling everyone differently is wrong.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Tom, my point was that all VFD's are not programmed for spindles as you suggested in fact apart from the VFD's sold on Ebay in spindle kits very few or none more likely are programmed that way and telling everyone differently is wrong.

Fair enough Chris, I should have been a tad more specific.
Still worth mentioning, as I know it's possible to de-rate motors with the Huanyang, so perhaps quite apt to mention in this particular case.

I don't know how many VFD's of which has this function/parameter,
and haven't compared prices vs the Huanyang hy02d223b.
Would certainly not be dismissive of the Powtran's, if they also have the ability to enter motor hp/kw and amperage parameters,
and were closely priced.

I hope Mat with one t, knows he's in good hands regarding delving into VFD's/inverters, plenty of pro's here to guide him.
I'm just a joe soap so he can dismiss my comments if he wishes, and perhaps goes all fancy with the box, cables or switches.
I guess it's very hot over there?
That's all gravy once the right machine is acquired.
Whether he decides to get a big bandsaw, or wishes to take the other Matt Cremona route, and rig up an induction motor on a mill
might be a consideration,
I'll bet Bob L can give a lot of good insight into that, whether it's feesable to run a small sawmill with 3hp?

Cheers
Tom

Powermatic might be another option, I wasn't aware these had this resawing capacity,
but with a 5hp motor if going single phase, would certainly need more juice than
the household plug, and some might say the wheels are too small for decent blades,
It looks particularly suited to turners in basements to me, although being so short might make the
leverage factor a bit more challenging, as I presume its pretty heavy...
(Just checked there, seemingly it could be over 900lbs!
That's over 400kgs, so presumably a lot less tippy than most other machines of this size.

Perhaps I'm wrong about my basement comment.
1791800B_Act1_606b.jpg
Leverage is your friend if moving a bandsaw
And in-case ones wondering, no need to dismantle everything, just the table as with any saw this range,
well on a 300kg machine/minus table I mean, as I said it's about the limit.

That chok to cant the saw beforehand could be a bit thicker, it makes it much easier.
I have a recent enough thread called tippy saw, which I learned not to also use fulcrums.
it might be of interest.



Screenshot-2022-2-26 Lugging a large bandsaw about.jpg

Just incase the size of these might seem unmovable, not so, most of the modern welded saws (since at least the 80's)
Italian machines this size are built so, and likely the most common to find in most parts of the world.



Perhaps some others could suggest anything else which might suit, though I'm afraid it might be a few years yet before many of the
far Eastern machines decide to cater for folks who want that capacity.

Just came across this machine, and noted it's recently listed, complete, and reasonably priced,
Located in Gippsland, and has the 400mm resaw depth.
Might possibly be worth some consideration

All the best

Tom

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/south-gippsland/power-tools/bandsaw-acm-bs640/1309306730
Screenshot-2023-3-14 Bandsaw ACM BS640 Power Tools Gumtree Australia La Trobe Region - South Gip.jpgACM snac 640 aus.jpg