Thread: Dishonest Advertising? Hammer N4400

Originally Posted by GarethR

So, would you guys consider this misleading advertising?

Technically it probably is misleading advertising. Its a 5" port but its covering a 4" hole.

My guess is that equipment manufacturers are starting to take notice of us woodies becoming more aware of the shortfalls of a 4" system and invisible dust. Hopefully the next batch of saws out of the factory will have 5" holes under the 5" ports. You may have gotten one of the ones where the manufacturing side was still cutting the 4" holes but they ran out of 4" ports, so stuck one of the new ones on.

I hope it is a sign that at least one manufacturer is "starting" to take notice. It looks like it would be possible to cut out the excess metal and make it a true 5" port, but if you do that you might as well go straight into the 6" mod.

Doug

OOhh, that sucks.

I believe it is misleading advertising; in engineering speak a "port" is a hole. What you have been supplied with is a 120mm dust CONNECTION, covering a 100mm dust PORT.

I also see that in no photo is the offending item shown, nor does it appear in either of the videos. When the lower door is open you can clearly see through the port and I would certainly assume it was indeed a 5" port as specified; the connection covering it is unable to be seen.

However; what outcome do you want to see? I think you'd struggle to get the shop to take it back without an expensive court case being involved somewhere. You could write a strongly worded letter to Hammer/Felder explaining your disappointment and hurt feelings but I expect the reply would be "we're sorry that you have misinterpreted the design specifications of our machine" (see the Standard Cockroach Letter)

The fact that you have brought this problem to the attention of some fellow woodworkers who may now think twice before choosing Felder/Hammer machinery is probably the most realistic outcome you're going to get.

Sorry for being pessimistic, I hate swallowing bitter pills.

Its a bit naughty but they are probably saying it is compatible with a 5inch DC. You sure have the right to be cranky. Bad luck mate.

Misleading and deceptive and also, imho, false
breach of our consumer protection laws
doubt whether any of our consumer protection agencies would be interested though, as they would not understand the detriment, neither would the courts.

you could make a stink and see what comes of it as the mnfr would clearly understand the detriment

I'd say that 5" versus 4" being only 20% out is pretty good compared to lots of other specification claims on machines.

FWIW, for all practical purposes it does not matter whether that particular port is 4 or 5" since all ports on bandsaws are severely throttled anyway and even if it was a 5" port this owuld not mean less dust in the cabinet.. The best dust extraction you can get on a BS is to jam a 4" flexy up under the table and catch the dust directly underneath the cut.

...That's it...not buying a Hammer N4400 now, wot a wipoff
I'll go buy a Laguna instead, and that's a pity too as I would rather the Italian Laguna as opposed to the Asian one Gregory's are flogging off.

Originally Posted by wolften

...That's it...not buying a Hammer N4400 now, wot a wipoff
I'll go buy a Laguna instead, and that's a pity too as I would rather the Italian Laguna as opposed to the Asian one Gregory's are flogging off.

In all honesty, if I knew then what I knew now, I would have avoided the N4400 and gone for the Laguna. What is the problem with Asian made?

Originally Posted by BobL

I'd say that 5" versus 4" being only 20% out is pretty good compared to lots of other specification claims on machines.

FWIW, for all practical purposes it does not matter whether that particular port is 4 or 5" since all ports on bandsaws are severely throttled anyway and even if it was a 5" port this owuld not mean less dust in the cabinet.. The best dust extraction you can get on a BS is to jam a 4" flexy up under the table and catch the dust directly underneath the cut.

I think you'll find the area is 50% more on 5" as to 4".
I agree with catching it under the table, I used an old Gemini heater duct on my 30" Barker and it caught about 90%.
H.

Or you could look at another leading name in bandsaws who clearly advertise and show conventional roller blade guides in their advertising blurb, & on the packing material BUT the machines are supplied with standard style platten style blade guides which just happen to have bearings???

Even though importers bring in the "same brand" and model machine the specs may be quite different between the importers.

In any case its misrepresentation which may or may not be intentional.

Seems to be a common theme. My HF-50 Scheppach router table from H&F claimed a 100mm port, when in reality it's a 2 1/2" port with a 100mm adaptor for the hose.

Originally Posted by clear out

I think you'll find the area is 50% more on 5" as to 4".

Sure, but it could have a 6 or 8" port but it wouldn't make a cracker of difference to the air flow because flow out of the cabinet requires the air to be able to get into the cabinet in the first place. All of the BS cabinets I have seen have relatively airtight cabinets so very little air can get in so virtually nothing gets out.

Originally Posted by Hermit

Seems to be a common theme. My HF-50 Scheppach router table from H&F claimed a 100mm port, when in reality it's a 2 1/2" port with a 100mm adaptor for the hose.

Well in reality it doesnt matter what the port size is or the hole underneath it if the whole concept behind the dust extraction is flawed.

A classic example is my belt and disk sander. It was advertised as coming with a 2" dust port. It does. BUT when I bought it nearly 10 years ago, I didnt know just how grossly inadequate a 2" port was on a 6" belt sander and a 10" disk sander combo. When I did find out and started to do the mod to "bore it out" to 6" I found when I started to do the work that just inside the 2" port the airstream was divided between the two sanding surfaces with about a 1/2 inch square servicing the disk sander and a choke-point of 1" x 1/4" to the disk sander. Plugging a vac or a dusty into the port on this machine was nothing more than a waste of electrons.

Now as far as I am aware, there are workplace health and safety regulations for acceptable levels of airborne dust in a work environment. In our own hobby workshops/sheds/garages we are on our own. BUT even though there are standards for the workplace, there is no standard that I know of for any machines to comply with any particular Australian Standard for dust collection.

Manufacturers of woodworking machines would have to put a bit more thought into how they build their machines IF they were required by law to affix a sticker to their machine saying "This machine complies with Australian Standard ABCD1234 for dust collection if connected to a dust extraction system producing a flow rate of xxxx.

Of course it wont happen. It is up to the end-user to ensure that they are protected. If you have the resources you can make the air pure enough without hooking the machine up to dust extraction at all.

And if they did make it law to do that and the manufacturers became liable for the health problems they cause, watch the price of our tools go through the roof.

I think I am going to be happier just modding the machines and managing my environment with ventilation.

Cheers

Doug

Thanks all for your comments.

I've written to Hammer Austria twice now asking for a simple explanation as to why they advertise a 5inch port when in fact it's more like 4inch. I received the following:

...silence

G

Originally Posted by GarethR

Thanks all for your comments.

I've written to Hammer Austria twice now asking for a simple explanation as to why they advertise a 5inch port when in fact it's more like 4inch. I received the following:

...silence

G

...ask that same question to Hammer/Felder Australia.
If the reply is a deafening silence after about 2 weeks, another email should be sent to inform them of their ignorance has cost them 1 definite sale and possibly a few others.