Thread: Dressing bandsaw tires, a sure method of truing the wheels + an edge question for ye

Couldn’t understand a word you were saying but good video I get the gist of it, seems to work well.

Thanks for watching Riverbuilder,
Glad its good enough for a demonstration, even if folks can't understand what the hell it is, I'm saying.
I had a good laugh at that.
I guess I have to face the cold hard truth, that I'll never be a much of a youtuber!

Still have to muck about with the edges, and torn between attempting to fettle it, or try and fix some of the missing lumps.
I'm fairly confident that the edges are at fault, so I'm going to try adjusting wheel protrusion to see if things can get better,
but that means moving the wheel out instead of the opposite which I'd like,
as this likely means shimming the guide mount with another bit of tape, and two layers are already in use to
make the face of the thrust line up with the blade.

Might be worth assembling the machine again, and seeing how things go as they are,
I haven't mucked about with it yet, as in finding the sweet spot on the tires to reduce the forward backwards motion of the blade,
but since I don't have need to have very accurate tenon cutting, in terms of up to the shoulder lines, I think it will be fine.
No issues with any fluttering, so that means it's probably sound enough.

But that old saying might hold through though...
Good is good, but better is better
There's another oldie which might be even more valid...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Can't decide which saying I'm gonna abide by
I would be more leaning towards the former if the tires were in a bit better nick, so might play it safe and call it quits.

All the best
Tom

It’s almost exactly the same saw as my 24” one I bought cheaply and have tuned up. Mine has the flat wheels too. I found once I had the band running well and tracking ok, it ran better with the teeth hanging off the front of the wheels,especially a bigger blade of 3/4” or so. So I set it up to that and adjusted the guides to suit. If I get time I’ll faff around and set up a YouTube clip of it .

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

It’s almost exactly the same saw as my 24” one I bought cheaply and have tuned up. Mine has the flat wheels too. I found once I had the band running well and tracking ok, it ran better with the teeth hanging off the front of the wheels,especially a bigger blade of 3/4” or so. So I set it up to that and adjusted the guides to suit. If I get time I’ll faff around and set up a YouTube clip of it .

Aye Riverbuilder, I plan on hanging the teeth off the wheels also.
I should have tracked it in a more preferable fashion for the video, sorry I should have done a more thorough video of
running the machine, but I was hoping to squeeze that wee snippet into the previous video at the time.
I can attempt to do as you say in another video, as it would be preferable, especially for me being a frugal hobbiest.

I haven't been at the machine since, as there is some adjustment for the wheel protrusion which might have effect.
I would like to move the wheel closer into the cabinet, as I have two layers of tape between the guides so the thrust guide
wheel/roller can be parallel with the blade.
Presuming pushing the wheel back into the cabinet would fix it, as I'd like to think I got the guidepost "bang on" parallel
I have no really good way of telling if it is perfect, but guessing there might be a little bit of an error.

I presume the blade will dance about if I try some tests with the wheel further in, or even just with the wheel(s) tracked
so the blade can run as you say,
I think it will have the same effect as there is so much taken off the edges, which is not consistent either.


This is largely a numpty mistake on my part, as I failed dressing the wheels flat at the time, well that and didn't read enough of the creekers posts about flat tired machines, and read all too much from the OWWM place, l think it was the only place I got a hit from, along with Olly Parry Jones's video on the tube.
Why

I should have filled those holes and also the edges with something...
(PU is what Jack Forsberg used before with seemingly good results.)

Instead of getting desperate and making an intentional CROWN to get down to the pitting slices and lumps.
This doubly screwed me over and I'm guessing my edges are likely much much worse than most folks machines.
I might even try building the edge yet, if it's not running in at least a half alright fashion.

"Italian bandsaw owners groupTM" cover your eyes now as this ain't pretty!


Trueing tires.jpg

This picture above demonstrates my superior intellect.
But wait, I didn't stop there with the bottom wheel and took off the edge from the top aswell !

Thank you very much for your offer Riverbuilder, if anything I'd like to know...
should your edges be rounded for whatever reason, if there is indeed a consistent chamfer/rounding/bevel
of the tires.
I can take you're word for it, should you not have the time to shoot a video or photo either.
Sounds to me like yours are consistent, but if not, that would absolutely be music to my ears.

At least...that's the impression I've gotten, I ain't saying the edges "must be consistent" on flat tires...
but I reckon so...
Whilst bearing in mind I'm only a hobbiest, and haven't had a hands on experience with any other flat tired machine.

Sorry If my posts are a bit long winded
Thanks
Tom

Tom, I’ll make time next week and shoot some video then send it you and compare. PM me an email address when you get time.
long winded posts are fine, I find it helps sometimes to say things out loud to oneself or write it down and re read it back again to help the thought process.

Good to know some can cope with my ramblings
I try and include as much info as possible, but on occasion my posts ends up a bit of a jumbled mess
for others to try and make sense of.
I've often thought about putting a quote at the end of my posts, something along the lines of....

Wait until a day to quote me, for I might be editing my posts a few times to include info, or to be clearer.
Suppose there's a good ol saying that would cover that.

Will shoot you a PM shortly, incase you wish your video to remain private or for any other reasons.
I do hope I didn't give the impression that I'd be annoyed for my thread to get derailed in any way shape or form, as most folks (hopefully) including myself quite like reading on all aspects, and since this is a bandsaw specific forum I don't think
anyone else would mind anything to do with bandsaws.

Tom

Hello again folks
I had a wee mess around with tracking the blade in various locations on the wheels,
I would have liked to track the blade with the teeth off the wheels a bit more than in my video,
but the machine wasn't happy, no surprise there.
Didn't bother assembling and giving it a go, just for fun to see how well it cut, maybe if it were a wee bit nicer
I might try, but that table is heavy and I don't want to take it off again.

Haven't got much done since, but did get some supplies from town.
I've since stumbled across a thread at the Canadian woodworking forum and also on the creek, titled...
A repair to vulcanized band saw tires, where Jack Forsberg used some PL construction adhesive to fill some voids on his machine.

Seems worth a go, so I bought the closest thing, some gorilla glue.
Jack mentioned the stuff he used was the same hardness as the rubber.
Should it not be any good, but workable, I can stretch the new tire over it.

I might get away with doing the bottom wheel to see first, since it got the worst of the abuse.
Also got some woven string for my plumbobs, which made things a lot less effort to use.
I wanted to move the machine into its spot in the shed, and thought I'd try and see how well it worked.
Still not easy, pretty much a two lamp job and a pain with one.

I wanted to have it levelled again so I can mess about with wheel protrusion.
Spent quite a bit on this cord for what it is, came with two pins for walls, it's much too delicate for that I woulda thought.
Decided it was worth making a bob for, so found an old eye for towing a car as it seemed to be quite heavy.

Just to give you a side by side look at why two lamps would be better than one
This is for anyone who's got a rocking machine

Much easier to see
SAM_4959.jpgSAM_4960.jpg

My wee 4 blocks and nice cord with rubber bands to grip
SAM_4964.jpg

As you can see I can line up the wheels, the top wheels being adjustable in depth from the cabinet, should I get away with only doing the bottom wheel, I can line up the edges.
Still likely to need some dressing there.
It's also adjustable left/right to account for tire thickness, so I can trust my table to be at 90 degrees.

SAM_4977.jpgSAM_4997.jpg
SAM_4995.jpg

Will be giving the machine a good rub down, and then dampening the surface (seemingly)
and applying the gorilla original in thin amounts, letting cure for two days before doing anything further.
Not done any testing of temperature of the cast wheels, but have some suitable fan heaters, oil rads, heat guns,hairdryers, and a
infrared thermometer gun, from the writing on the box, this stuff seems fairly forgiving in regards to temperature.
best results warmer, I'll likely be using some heat.

From the epoxy pour videos which are everywhere, heat can have detrimental effect if too hot, and too thick, so will be cautious.

Not sure if masking tape will be enough of a barrier to cover the wheel(s)
Might do the rims with some insulation tape.

Hoping to have a crack at this tomorrow, but it will likely take a week to get to a stage where I can test it.

Love to know more about this glue, couldn't find much on youtube regarding anything close to using the stuff for filling.
Cheers
Tom
.

Hello all
Haven't figured out if this fix will work, seems there would be something more suitable for the job.
Twiddling my thumbs waiting for it to cure, I didn't want to go working on something else, and decided to have
a further go at Centaurolizing my machine, as my previous fix at this wasn't very good.
SAM_5000.jpgSAM_5001.jpg

I still need to do some work on this, but will leave it for now as I want to see how things look with a blade on.
It seems the trunnion is backwards on these machines, and further tilting, closer to 45 degrees could be achieved,
but first a block needs to be made up for the bolt, as the weight of the table still requires the bracket I made when I got the
saw, I'm seeing if I could do away with that part, as it will likely foul the trunnion.
I'll have a better idea of how things will look soon, so I can decide then.

DSCN2164.jpg
SAM_5025.jpg

Was surprised at how well the table locks, this wrench style of lever is not suitable though, and I may chop it and do something else with it, as the honking thing swings and self locks with its own weight.
A simple large knob would be sufficient, and would make assembly easier, as it's a bit of a jigsaw puzzle at the moment.
What was I thinking, lol!
SAM_5026.jpg

Hopefully I'll get back to these tires soon, and do another round of dressing, be interesting to see how the "rubber" works compared to the proper vulcanized ones... it will likely have to be dressed on both the inside and outside.
That's if I can stretch it on in the first place, looks tight without any tire on, that will be another adventure.

Cheers
Tom

Sorry folks, no update on how the glue set yet, as I've only really got a few things done since.
I just thought there might be some folk who might appreciate this, should they have to deal with an in-accessible bolt for tilting
the table.
(I only done this to stop the table moving about a bit, might have filed a bit much out of the trunnion holes in the past)
Very pleased to report my Centaurolization attempt at the trunnion is a success!

I was dubious about the table keeping tight to the trunnion and sagging, this as due to the fact that I had only a pair of nuts and some washers behind the plate, so made this up from the remains of the old bracket.
I had no angle grinder, so it seemed to make sense, what a PITA I made for myself,
Needed lots of bashing back, filing and eventually tramming to call it good.
Poor man's dial indicator is great for tuning drill table, lot better than a square.
Piece trammed afterwards with the wider roundish stock, works a bit nicer than an upside down drill.
SAM_5034.jpg

I won't show my ugly welds too close with oversized damp rods which was to bit me in the , really need an angle grinder, no sharp edges on by bench grinder wheel now.

So had another crack at the handle, just about got it bent enough without snapping the welds off,
I would have ground a slit around the whole thing and made the thing much nicer if I angle grinder was present,
but couldn't do that, so leave it a bit of an odd profile for the moment, it's comfortable which is all that matters.
This makes for a good gun, best have somewhere planned for that cold chisel to go!
SAM_5045.jpg

I thought I'd be able to have an adjustable placement for locking the handle, but seems that's down to the tapped block
behind the plate, and a washer or some grinding might be employed for a favourable orientation,
I have no preference so for, those edges of the plate are still sharp, so didn't mess about with that.
Seems alright where it is.

SAM_5046.jpg

SAM_5047.jpg

Was very apprehensive about pulling out the bracket, as I thought the table would dip, but not so
(the threads on the trunnion were snapped off, so 'tis why)
Nice to know I can do away with that part, as it was fouling the tilting...well it would have but there's a bit of the frame in the way to be dealt with yet.

SAM_50522.jpg

Still have to make a plate in place of the washer, as I'm guessing its taking a bit of pressure, but waiting until I get the saw back together to see if the table is as level as it appeared.
I might need to keep the bracket, so have to take that into account.

SAM_5057.jpg

Not sure how solid it will be at 45, but seems solid when close to it.
Still some space on the left side of the plate, should it run to the end of the curved slot.

SAM_5055.jpg

Hope someone finds this interesting, and if not...
I had my fun, and that's all that matters! - YouTube

Hopefully get the place ready soon to have another crack at this tire dressing malarkey
All the best

Tom

I did a quick video with the way I used the laser to set up the wheels on my bandsaw if anyone is interested. Setting up a bandsaw and wheel tuning using a laser line - YouTube

Hi Riverbuilder
I enjoyed watching the laser level approach, but wouldn't have faith in it regarding my machine, but I will
say it might be the bees knees for a good machine set up already, or even to fix a warped base.

I didn't realise my machine was so wobbly until I was doing some filing yesterday, making my table tilt to 30 degrees,
miles away from 45, thought I was getting close, nah 30 degrees and I've filed enough meat off.
I only wanted the plate there for alignment, as I've went through a box of blades before chasing drift, and might have filed the trunnion holes a bit larger than I should have.

I haven't backed it up using the "dark room plumbob method" above, but it seemed one can deform what a reference is, (the column) by adjustment of the levelling screws.
Its a bit much being able to get probably an inch of movement with the back and fourth movement of a finger on the top wheel.

I can't/haven't properly looked into whether this warp is from bad manufacture, seemingly so to me, from the guidepost being out, and as the boss for the jacking screws would suggest.
But it could also be from the machine dropping, or something falling on the table, as the raised casting around the trunnion bolt had snapped off with the threads, so could even be both.
These castings, well I can speak highly of the carriage castings more so, are likely the best you could come across, guess the rest is the same, I've have a vice which gave up for less abuse.

If it becomes an annoyance of for some other reason, I may well look into why the front left and back right of my machines base will not sit onto a flattish surface.

That tool looks like it would be handy for the base, but looks to me likes something is up with the machine,
spelching and straining to cut, I wouldn't be happy with that myself.
Seems the motor is under strain, and I've already cooked a VFD before on the saw, due to wandering, my motor got hot aswell.

Eventually, I'm looking to be able to resaw acoustic guitar soundboards and back and side sets, so am looking for the best performance I can attain, regardless of time or whatever.
This might explain why I've had my machine apart for nearly a year, on and off doing all kinds of work to it.

Hopefully get back at this dressing before long, few wee jobs needing done first.
Cheers
Tom

Yeah I realised later that I’d backed off the drive belt tension to adjust the bottom wheel and hadn’t pulled it back on. My saw is only 2 hp, and that band I threw on it is a bit rusty on the body, it’s an old one that came with the machine, still quite sharp but it would be tight in the kerf, probably should have cleaned it off a bit. Idid another cut later on to see how it would cut a real thin slice,off the fence, it went pretty well. A4B28770-C031-42F3-AA75-AB472AE707F2.jpeg

Hello again
I still question why your drive belt should have any influence regarding spelching,
and reckon the blade would need to have a very heavy and uneven set for it to be down to the blade.

It would explain the saw struggling, but I question if you have watched a saw of a similar league setup well,
fair enough, you could say a lot of the folks making videos like this are using more powerful saws with big Leeson motors
but at the same time, there is some industrial saws made in Italy which come with 2hp motors, like the old SNAC 540mm wheeled machines.
I guess these machines are nearly as capable as my 3hp 600mm SNA machine,

I can say from the experience of countless times attempting to get my saw running well is that a machine not setup well
gets the power sucked from it, and leads to the set compressing leaving one with plenty of still sharp but unuasable blades.

I would hazard a guess that you are not quite getting the same results as this,
and this fella reckons his saw is needing new tires, guessing the cork rubber material got compressed or worn at the front.
Sapele resaw - YouTube

If you spend any time reading from the creeker folk,a saw in this league should be able cut as fast as you can feed it.
I've had that experience on occasion, and settled until things got too bad last year and something needed looking over.
I knew things could have been better, as the saw had issues cutting close to max capacity a few times,
not to mention very noticeable if cutting even small logs.

I have a thorough post which needs updating about all this on my Griggio saw on a uk workshop forum about that, which might explain some of the other method's I'd tried previously, like expecting one part of the frame or post to be an absolute.
TBH I took a gamble myself in the end, and hedged my bets on the column,
having destroyed my motor bearings by aligning everything to that.
Funnily the column is tapered on some of the new machines, so one would need to use the other side, and make longer blocks sticking out from the machine, or something like that...should it be rocking about no matter what you do.

I know it might seem over the top for some, but my thread explains why, seemingly a few of these went out the door that way.
Maybe not as much of a basket case as mine was, hence my tire edges being obliterated, which would likely have been repairable had I known what I posted on youtube.
Regardless if I screwed up my tires or not, it's still very much a positive experience having devised a method which I will be using again shortly for the new tire, and for everyone to see.
So a nod to Olly Parry Jones for the inspiration, as there's a lot of folks who have strange ideas on truing bandsaw tires, and Olly sorted that out for the folks who don't have a lathe.

Things become a bit more temperamental when the wheels need be dressed flat, and I have a video link embedded in the second vid description which demonstrates a slighty different method and the problems one encounters doing so.

Edit; to add I should probably link my other video on my way of getting the alignment of the wheels, for taking note that the blade likely needs to stay on the wheels to get a true dressing of the top wheel, well for flat tires anyway.
Using the beam was a learning experience to realise how much the upper wheel can move about if not tensioned,
and that the blade will also influence it, so things need to be checked in both orientations.
Wheel alignment & troubleshooting Italian bandsaw. - YouTube

I could edit the video, to update my method of levelling the machine, as above, but I think the photo's and the updated description
covers that.
All the best
Tom

And I have yet to see how I fair up trying out the alignment test mentioned by member NeilS.
He mentioned that the blade should stay put when the wheels are moved backwards.
I haven't heard anyone else state this, so am eager to check that out.

Love to hear what others experiences are, it would likely be very helpful in regards to my tire edge profile question.

Curious to see what those with new crisp edged flat tires have experienced in this regard, or if it's only applicable to cambered wheels?

Has anyone noticed any witness marks of the edge profile suggesting that the wheel might not have been glued on the rim evenly,
I guess that many replacements are not as conformable as others, like my Centauro which the material isn't moulded perfect and worked by some grinding methods.
It's a bit of a question I suppose, as most who use a brand new rubber or whichever wearable material it may be,
might be using it from the get go with the blades on all the rubber, much like what I've pictured, so it's likely difficult to find someone who
only uses a wide blade, and who doesn't track their blades whilst under tension, as the blade will walk the more tension is applied,
and if rotating the wheels under-tensioned, will stick into the thrust guide and be an annoyance.

I'm guessing it's a very minute detail, but I reckon folks who have a machine running as smooth as new
and not as well running nowadays might notice something which would suggest some inconsistency at the edge being at fault.
There's other variables too which might be worth a mention, glue used if any, age of the tire, no running of other smaller blades,
no tension left on the tires for any long periods, and likely other things which may come into play, so eager to know more, and questioning
why addressing the edges of flat bandsaw tires is not a talked about thing, as it suggests changing the tire a no brainer and back to work
which doesn't seem the case to me, unless it was a stretch on tire affixed by either a raised casting i.e Felder or with the Centauro with a track in which the tire can settle into itself.
There are many other brands of machines which gluing onto flat wheels is the norm, so I guess what I'm asking isn't too much at the same time.

Tom